Author Topic: casting molds  (Read 12058 times)

lew wetzel

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casting molds
« on: July 09, 2008, 11:29:40 PM »
i am curious about casting some parts that are highly decorative.is there a source to buy molds or is this something you have to take on by yourself.....

Offline David Veith

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2008, 11:58:22 PM »
Something that you have to take on your own. Lost wax is the way to go for what it sound like you are taking about. I am asuming that you own the part that you want to make. On the old board there was a long thread on it. I pm you give me a shout.
David Veith
David Veith

lew wetzel

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2008, 12:20:43 AM »
david,this is something i want to explore.i really like the chambers cast silver parts.will call you later.. 

Offline DutchGramps

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2008, 11:26:53 PM »
There is that simple technique using "ossa sepia", the backshield of a cuttlefish. This link is unfortunately in DoubleDutch, but the pictures tell most of the technique:
http://www.zilvermaan.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=200&sid=b2a403e08e763518f51b88873a744be3
Did it myself a couple of times, using small models of carved wood; also cast lead balls of about 3/4" for a small salute cannon.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2008, 01:24:11 AM »
If you are going to get set up for true investment lost  wax casting. you can expect to spend at least $4000 or $5000 . That's if you make almost all your own equipment. If you buy it will cost about $20,000 or more.
  The vacuum pump , vacuum chambers and burnout oven are the most expensive parts. Depending on the size of the parts you intend to cast you will need a centrifugal casting machine or a vacuum casting table. You will also need a wax injector.  After all this. most gun makers who want the silver parts are not willing to pay the price for them. The price kind of weeds out the wantabee's
   BUT-- if you make guns  in the price range of  $20,000 to $100,000 it will pay off well.
Then you can sell the equipment when your done.
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lew wetzel

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2008, 03:43:24 AM »
jerry ,i have a blacksmith forge and fiqure i could melt down just about anything with it.is there any sites to doing molds or maybe some videos or books,would like to research it abit before i decide to pursue this...

Offline Dphariss

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2008, 06:16:55 AM »
jerry ,i have a blacksmith forge and fiqure i could melt down just about anything with it.is there any sites to doing molds or maybe some videos or books,would like to research it abit before i decide to pursue this...

Melting the material is the easy and cheap part of the operation. Read Jerry's post again. $$$
Making moulds for casting the waxes. Making a "tree" of the waxes, coating it, firing to burn out the wax. Before you even put heat to the metal.

Dan
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Offline 44-henry

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2008, 06:40:30 AM »
If you want to get into it for smaller pieces it might be more cost effective, I have looked at smaller jeweler setups for our university lab, still, the $4000-$5000 would still be likely unless you buy used or, as Jerry, said, make your own.

Offline Rolf

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2008, 10:31:41 AM »
Casting parts is a 3 part process.
1. Making a model of the part and using it to make molds.
2. Melting the metal.
3.Pouring the metal and getting it to fill the mold completely before the metal solidifies.

It's part three that's the biggest challenge to both your skill and your wallet.
There's three solutions to this:

1. Gravity pour(simplest)
This requires that you melt a lot more metal than what's need for the part.
The weight of the excess metal forces the smelt into the mold. The more intricate the mold is, the more excess metal is need. This is ok for brass but way to costly for silver.

2. Spin casting
The mold with the smelt container is but in a mechanical contraption which rotates them rapidly. The centrifugal force forces the metal in to the form. These spincasting machines are used alot by jewelers for small scale production of limited series. With spincasting you  need very little excess smelt. The machines are relatively cheap. But your limited to making small parts. None of the machines I've seen are big enough to make a triggergard.

3. Vacuum casting
Here you use a pump the create vacuum that sucks the smelt into the mold.
Very efficient process that gives good castings. But the machines cost a fortune.

If your not doing this for a living, and you want to make buttplates, triggergard etc, costs will limit you to option 1 and brass casting. I cast sterling silver using gravity pour, but only to melt my silver scrap into ingots that I roll into sheet stock.

If you're an amateur like me, its easier to make your parts out of sheet stock.
Rigth now I'm making  two sterling silver triggergards for a pair of kentucky pistols.
The triggergards are made out of three separate parts  from sheet stock that are silver soldered together.

Best regards

Rolfkt
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 10:40:41 AM by Rolfkt »

lew wetzel

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2008, 04:14:30 PM »
i have been on the phone talking with someone with casting experience and he told me a reguilar shop vac can be used to do the vacumn casting.also he refered me to a book by mike porter and i will check out amazon to see if it is available and due some research on the net.

Offline davec2

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2008, 07:32:31 PM »
Lew,

The advice you are getting here is good.  However, since I have been making precious metal castings for 50 years, I will throw in my 2 cents worth.  First of all, if you buy all new equipment, the costs will be about what Jerry and Rolfkt have noted.  But you can go a long way with used equipment.  I just helped a friend of mine set up to do fairly large centrifugal and vacuum castings for about $600.  This included a vacuum pump, a centrifugal casting machine, a burn out oven, a vulcanizing press, flasks, a wax injector, a few casting crucibles, and a Prest-o-lite torch rig.  The following are some examples of the type of castings you can do with the equipment just noted:

Solid 18K gold and ivory letter opener and reading glass set with emeralds and diamonds



Silver and gold muzzleloading jewelry



Brass thumbpiece



Replica Spanish coins



18K gold eagle cheek piece inlay



These are all fairly small pieces, but I have cast parts as big as butt plates and trigger guards with the same equipment.  Very long parts, like a rifle trigger guard, can be done in two pieces in a centrifugal casting machine and then joined as Rolfkt describes for an assembled guard.  However, the casting can have any or all the detail you want without having to hammer it out each time.  Original patterns can be one of a kind carved from wax.  Or, a pattern can be carved from plastic or wood and a silicone rubber mold made so that multiple parts can be quickly duplicate by injecting wax.  If the original pattern is made up from metal, you can vulcanize a mold like the following and also injection mold multiple patterns:

Spanish coin:



Metal patterns:



Lock parts and their molds:



Duplicated wax patterns:



Now these lock parts are cast in steel, which the equipment I will talk about cannot  do, but the pattern process is the same - (these lock part patterns were then handed of to a foundry that did lost wax steel casting).

To do castings like these, you will need some or all of the the following equipment, depending on how you want to do castings.  You can make any of these castings with a vacuum casting set up - even the largest ones.  If you use vacuum, you will not need the centrifugal machine.  If you carve the wax patterns one at a time, you will not need a vulcanizing press, mold rubber, or silicone rubber mold making materials.  So the following list are just generic types of casting equipment and you may not need everything here:

Centrifugal casting machine - new ~ $400.   Used, I recently bought one for $60 (be careful here about the condition of the machine and its size.  It is easy to make small castings in a large machine, but impossible to make large castings in a small machine.)

Burn out oven - New, anywhere from $700 to $3000.  Used, $150

Vulcanizing press (for one type of mold making) - new $750, used $50

Vacuum pump - for investment mixing and casting.  New  $500 to $800, used $100

Torch rig (I use an air fuel type like a Prestolite for non ferrous castings).  New $175 (plus an acetylene tank), used $25

A vacuum casting machine is expensive new, but can also be found for a very reasonable amount used.  However, A vacuum casting machine is also very simple to build.  It is basically a metal plate (steel, aluminum, or copper) with a hole in the middle connected to a vacuum reservoir and
a vac pump with a valve.  The plate also needs a heat resistant gasket to set the hot flask on.  Not hard to build, if you are interested.

Bottom line, this type of casting is not a walk in the park, but it can be done with used equipment.  It just takes a little patience to judiciously round up the gear you need.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 06:01:46 AM by davec2 »
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lew wetzel

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2008, 07:47:04 PM »
dave,wow,very cool indeed.i really just want to make side plates and thumb pieces,thimbles and entry pipes.and some inlays.might get on ebay and see if any of the mentioned equipment is available and how much.seeing your work is very inspiring...thank you!!!!

Offline DutchGramps

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2008, 12:12:28 AM »
There is a wealth of information available in reprints and new books about all kinds of casting at http://www.camdenmin.co.uk/Found.htm
In Africa and the far East I have seen very acceptable castings being made in brass, bronze, silver, iron and aluminium using the lost wax method with very simple equipment. Sure, if you want the best possible as-cast finish, and more than one or two pieces, you will be better off with (semi)-professional equipment, at a price  ;D
And I found a good description in English of that cuttlefish bone method; available on request!
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lew wetzel

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2008, 02:22:52 AM »
gramps,thanks for the email.very good information.i looked on ebay and they have everything needed and supplies to get started.still want to research this somemore and crunch some numbers to estimate what it would take to get started.i want to read up on this,i know there has to be some do's and dont's to this just like in rifle building.anybody ever had a bad experience with doing this .

Offline jerrywh

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2008, 02:44:27 AM »
 There is a different way to  make the molds .Look up polytek on the internet . From them you can order RTV silicone mold rubber. The best kind is the pal-t-sil. they will also send you a complete book on making the molds, free of charge. With the silicone mold system you do not need a heated press.
  Most of the parts illustrated in the previous post by Davec2 are small. For those parts , his process is excellent .  If you are going to cast larger parts like butt plates and trigger guards,  the equipment will be a lot more expensive.   It is much more cost effective to cast parts such as trigger guards, side plates and butt plates several at a time. You can cast half a dozen trigger guards in one pour.  This requires large flasks and a much larger burnout oven etc. everything moves up in scale. If you are sending off waxes to a foundry is no problem except if you want them cast in silver.   It is extremely hard to find a foundry to cast silver of any size. The reason is the cost of the silver in the sprues and trees cost many times more than the silver in the parts.   Each time silver is melted for a pour,  30% new silver with an added anti oxidant must be added to the melt.  Every pour will not come out perfect.  They do no like to assume the risk of the loss.
   For that reason I pour my own . Besides I don't want anybody steeling my art designs. If a gun is totally unique it will bring a lot more money. When you send off a wax the wax can be used to make a mold off of .  If someone pays $30,000 for a gun they don;t want to see another one like it at a flea market the next week.   .
   The whole process is often called precision casting. The reason is that every part of the process is precision,   right down to the temperature of the water that is mixed with the investment.  Perfect casting require perfect control of all parts of the process. I time every move of the investment process with a timer. And keep close temperature control.
   A good book is available called [Centrifugal or lost wax jewelry casting] by Murray Bovin.  for big parts you just scale up.
  
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 06:22:29 PM by jerrywh »
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lew wetzel

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2008, 02:59:03 AM »
thats a beautiful pistol jerry.i did look at some stuff on ebay and dont think it will be suitable for gun parts.i really love ornate stuff and since i cant engrave i might try my hand at this.i am going to get myself some literature on this and study up on it...thanks for the info...

lew wetzel

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2008, 06:34:50 AM »
seen some lots of 10 molds for sale on ebay.jewlery molds,can they be reused for gun parts,or once the pattern is in them are they unchangeable...

Offline davec2

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2008, 09:11:27 AM »
Lew,

You can't reuse the old molds.  Once the rubber is vulcanized, the mold is permanent.  This is also true of  the poured silicone rubber Jerry is talking about.  In both cases the mold material  itself (rubber or silicone) is not reusable.

As to part size, my centrifugal casting machine can take a casting flask 4 inches in diameter and 6 inches long.  The crucible can hold 20 ounces of gold and just a few less in silver.  Any pattern that will fit in the flask and will take less metal than the crucible will hold can be cast in it.  Most rifle butt plates and side plates will fit in this size flask, so I can do castings one at a time cost effectively.  For rifle trigger guards, I do them in two pieces and braze (silver, gold, or brass) the pieces together just behind the bow.  Or, on the vacuum cast table, I can pour a trigger guard all one piece.  However, since I can't tell the difference when the guard is all done, I usually opt for the two piece castings as the centrifugal casting process is very reliable.  Jerry is absolutely correct - each step in the process must be exact or the casting will be poor or not come out at all.  It is always tempting to try to fix a slightly imperfect casting, but it always takes longer and is less satisfactory that it is to just do the casting over again.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 09:13:55 AM by davec2 »
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Offline Rolf

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2008, 02:23:55 PM »
Davec2, your suggestions in you last post was very interesting. I have not seen any centrifugal casting machines in Norway with that big a flask. How big is your machine and what does it weigh? What did it cost? Have you tried casting pistol butt caps?

I made this pistol triggergard from 1/8" sheet stock.

The length form the tip of the tang to the front of the bow is 5".  The foot is 3" long.
In theory, you could cast the bow + tang in one part and the foot as a separate piece.
I couldn't find jeweler in Norway with a flask larger than 6 cm (2.30")
Thats why I'm making the triggergards from sheet stock (1/8" thick).

Best regards

Rolfkt
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 02:26:49 PM by Rolfkt »

Offline davec2

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Re: casting molds
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2008, 06:57:00 PM »
Rolfkt,

One of my casting machines is a Kerr 6" x 4".  I believe they are still available from a jewelers supply house called Otto Frei (www.ottofrei.com).  The catalog I have (2004) lists the shipping weight as 25 pounds.  The arm length is 24 inches and it is about 10 inches tall - not a huge machine, but it does need to be mounted to a heavy bench.  The Otto Frei catalog number is 122.342
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780