Barrel Cleaning Problem

[rfcbuf]

Been shooting 50 cal. flint for years using Goex 3f and cleaning after shooting with Windex and water. Cloth patches and nylon bore brush are used with the solution.
Since last year,all shooting has been followed by water & Windex cleaning and water rinsing my barrels thuroughly. When drying,the drying patches come out jet black colored.

What's going on? Is the black color a residue of graphite from the gun powder that dosen't clean with the water and Windex solution? I also notice that following the drying routine the barrel bores treated with a light oil spray lube show signs of light surface rust although the bores shine bright when I use a bore light to inspect them.

I've even tried different patch lubes when shooting including all shots with spit patches. Same black drying patches occur after wet cleaning so I"m inclined to think it's has something to do with the Goex powder

[Standing Bear]

Did you change cleaning rods?  Brass rods tend to color and leave color.
Tc

[Smoketown]

rfcbuf,

Do any of your shooting friends have "old stock" Goex powder you can trade for and try?

Also, Windex 'may' have changed their formula and it's not "lifting the black" that would have otherwise been flushed out.

Cheers,
Smoketown

[snowdragon]

Yeah, maybe Windex went environmentally friendly or something. I'm thinking Windex is a little "weak" anyway for that heavy grunge that builds up from black powder. Try dish soap or even laundry detergent mixed with your water, just a little dab will do ya. Also, make sure your patch is tight in the bore. It needs to squish into the grooves as it swabs. Same with your drying patch. Oil the bore as soon as the barrel is dry. Don't use hot water.

As far as something different with the Goex, I don't see how that can leave residue that will withstand a good cleaning. It's just crud, not like it bonds to the metal in the barrel.

Soapy water, tight patches, more elbow grease. Residue won't have a chance. Bill

[James Rogers]

I believe windex did away with the ammonia

[Dphariss]

Is it black when the patches are wet? If not its likely iron oxide being scrubbed off the barrel.
Let the patches dry for a day or two and see if the black turns to red iron oxide. If so the black is just iron oxide.
If it is grey its fouling.

Dan

[smylee grouch]

I use plain old cold water from the tap. It cleans every thing out and after I dry it with enough clean dry patches, I run a WD-40 patch down and out then dry up the excess of that with one dry-clean patch. Its always been clean and never rusts.

[LH]

Possiblilty you might have a dome of hard fouling on the face of your breechplug. Have you tried a scraper to see? 

[Dphariss]

I believe windex did away with the ammonia

I started using original Windex cut with 3 parts water for BPCR some time back, early 90s I suppose. Mostly to remove any bullet lube that might be at the chamber mouth. I had pretty well given this up as unnecessary though it cleans BPCR great (but they can be cleaned with 2 wet patches and 2 dry unless leaded).
The new Eco-friendly Windex reacts badly with BP fouling or at least the stuff I tried did makes like brown foam or goo.
Water hotter than room temp is not needed.
We must remember that the old chlorate caps produced very aggressive fouling as does Pyrodex since it contains high levels of Potassium Perchlorate. This requires more extensive cleaning and the hot soapy water treatment may well date to the corrosive cap era.
If we look at some original percussion guns that have extensive erosion of the metal around the nipple we will get an idea of how aggressive this stuff is. Flintlocks that have not been converted and reconverted do not have this damage and its one way to tell a converted back to flint gun in many cases.  I have read it actually breaks down the iron/steel at the molecular level. I know from examining modern made guns that it can eat away the metal with little or no rust that a person would note as rust appearing.
So in this case, chlorate fouling, hot or hot soapy water and lots of it is a good idea. For BP fouling it should not be needed.

Dan

[Hungry Horse]

 I make my own solvent. It is nothing special. It is a cup of Simple Green, and a cup of anti-freeze to a gallon of water. It cleans like the devil, because the Simple Green is cold water activated, and the anti-freeze has a wetting agent, along with a metal preservative. I've been using this stuff for thirty years. You do have to dispose of the used solution like regular anti-freeze to be environmentally correct though.

                                 Hungry Horse

[JCKelly]

I am a grouch & I agree with Smylee Grouch.

Grandfather said use cold water. He never shot a breechloader until he was 18.

Me, I am a Pain in the Ass metallurgist now & again involved with corrosion.

Soap has salt. It is corrosive to iron.
I liked that when employed, it helped sell more really fancy high alloys to P&G.

Hot water rusts iron faster than does cold.

Salt and hot water rusts iron just dandy.

Dish soap has damnifino what but it will pit 18% chromium 10% nickel flatware, if left on. 

Cold water.

Cold water, cold water, cold water

Dry & oil.

[doulos]

A couple months back I visited and talked with Tip Curtis on my way to Nashville. His cleaning regimen that he states he has used forever is water followed by drying the barrel and then swabbing the original Hoppes no 9 solvent to neutralize any corrosives from the powder. He then follows it up with plain old motor oil. He stated Hoppes no9 was originally developed to counteract the corrosive primers used at the turn of the century. Im assuming it must be mildly alkaline. Ballistol is also slightly alkaline. He showed me some guns he has used for 30 years or so and cleaned with this method and they were pristine.  Interesting and great guy to talk to.

[1911tex]

doulos:  I have been doing exactly as Tip has done, many decades.  The only difference is that after flushing with room temp water, I use the Hoppes #9 plus for black powder and swab with mobil one sythetic oil which will not gum after long periods as I have noticed regular oil does...altogether, the same as Tips recommendation.

[Dphariss]

I make my own solvent. It is nothing special. It is a cup of Simple Green, and a cup of anti-freeze to a gallon of water. It cleans like the devil, because the Simple Green is cold water activated, and the anti-freeze has a wetting agent, along with a metal preservative. I've been using this stuff for thirty years. You do have to dispose of the used solution like regular anti-freeze to be environmentally correct though.

                                 Hungry Horse

Simple green will attack traditional stock finishes. Anti-freeze is pretty toxic stuff.
Most people that have never tried plain water think it will not work "gotta have a solvent". Not so for BP fouling. Take a well fouled flintlock from the gun and run the fouled pan under cool tap water for 15 seconds and see what is left....
Water will even remove surprising amounts of carbon from modern  HV brass suppository gun barrels and its not nearly as hygroscopic as BP fouling.

Dan

[SR James]

I recently started adding Dawn dishwashing soap to my cleaning water.  Don't know why, just did.  Started getting after-rust.  Then read somewhere recently (maybe here) about soap containing salts as JC pointed out.  Went back to plain old water, no after-rusting.

[David R. Pennington]

I always clean my rifle in the field with plain ole water. I found that if I wait till I get home there will invariably be some major emergency waiting that will delay my chore and then I'll have rust. I tried a lot of stuff but never found anything any better than water. I did try Hoppes 9 for a while and while it worked ok it was cleaning the never seize out of the breech plug threads and giving me the same sort of problem. I would get a clean bore then my dry patches were picking up a stain where the #9 was pulling the anti seize out of the breech threads.

[hammer]

I would suggest trying a bronze brush.   Very easy for the nylon brush/patch to still leave hard residue, even if it looks clean and shiny with a bore light.    Clean as before then vigorous bronze brushing, then as before and repeat the process.   Don't forget to clean the bronze and nylon brushes in between.   May take a while before the final patches come out perfectly clean.   Finally spray with WD40 and run a WD40 patch down.  If that come out as new then job done.   Wipe out and thoroughly oil with a good gun oil with a preservative.    Can take some patience, surprising what can sometimes have been unwittingly left down there.   And that can vary on weather/humidity during shooting.

Good luck.

[jamesthomas]

 NO, no, No, on the  bronze brush!! to many times has someone got one stuck an the next thing they're on this an other forums asking how to get it out. Just plain water and a drop or two of Dawn dish soap has always done the job for me. Then its followed by a good coat of Birchwood Caseys Barricade.

[smylee grouch]

I tried the bronze brush a couple of times and the last time it came apart on me in the bottom of the barrel. I was somewhat lucky as I had a cleaning patch around the brush and that created enough of a seal so I could pop the bugger out with a few grains of 4f. I think that without the cleaning patch around the brush I would have had to debreech the gun. I don t use or recomend them anymore.

[Dphariss]

If BP fouling is caked so hard a brush is needed something is very wrong somewhere. Very atypical. OR the barrel is pitted which makes them very hard to clean.
BP fouling sucks up water like a sponge unless its been soaked in oil and then cooked into black concrete by being fired afterward.
0000 steel wool on a jag will often remove things a brush will not.
NEVER use a stainless steel brush.
Dan

[rfcbuf]

 Most of the recommendations here suggest after shooting flint lock with Goex to clean with just plain water without any soap in the solution. This seems to make sense as soap has salt and may be causing the iron oxide rusting I've been experiencing.

 Now, I wonder if just plain water cleaning will remove any oil/grease residue accumulating from unburned patch lubes  that may remain in a fouled barrel? Using Windex first followed by plain water cleaning then drying will hopefully help cure the rusting problem.

I'll follow by applying a good light oil patch through the barrel. 

[hanshi]

You can't beat plain old water; and they never change the formula.

[Standing Bear]

"Also, Windex 'may' have changed their formula and it's not "lifting the black" that would have otherwise been flushed out."

Good point on formula change. The stuff w vinegar won't cut stuff on a windshield either.

I used a cleaner made from a concentrate for years just cause I won the stuff. Ran out and started using tap water. Plus the touchhole w a toothpick and let her soak while cleaning the lock.

[moleeyes36]

After a thorough cleaning, a number of the guys in my club, including me, have gone to using a patch lightly oiled with olive oil as the final step before putting the gun away.  It's a natural oil and seems to keep the bore rust free when the gun is not used for quite some time.   

Don Richards

[Daryl]

I am a grouch & I agree with Smylee Grouch.

Grandfather said use cold water. He never shot a breechloader until he was 18.

Me, I am a Pain in the Ass metallurgist now & again involved with corrosion.

Soap has salt. It is corrosive to iron.
I liked that when employed, it helped sell more really fancy high alloys to P&G.

Hot water rusts iron faster than does cold.

Salt and hot water rusts iron just dandy.

Dish soap has damnifino what but it will pit 18% chromium 10% nickel flatware, if left on. 

Cold water.

Cold water, cold water, cold water

Dry & oil.

Same here, Smylee, Dan and James!! 

Holland and Holland - of ENGLAND - old time & current double rifle and double shotgun makers of the finest quality (not the new US barrel maker of that name) told my friend to use nothing but tap-cold water in his collection of black powder shotguns and rifles, else he'd ruin the bores due to flash rusting. I know some say they do not get flash rusting- good for them. Mine did when I used hot water & soap, Taylor's did when he used hot water and soap and Peter N's. rifle barrel was almost ruined from years of using hot water and soap.  After reading that note from H&H, I switched, as did Taylor. No more flash rusting after cleaning.

Cold water works for us. There is NO need for soap when shooting real black powder.