Stabbing for relief carving

[Acer Saccharum]

Ed, I think that is a great idea. Just as 18th Cent furniture builders had pattern books, I suspect some gunsmiths would have developed shop drawings, at the very least, to use as a motif on future work. European smiths had pattern books.

Some smiths' carvings are like a fingerprint or signature, you know whose work it is from across the room. Other smiths had such variety, it's doubtful they kept drawing of their work.

The above is just speculation, I wasn't there at the time.

[LRB]

 I have a question. What advantage is there in using a hand full of thin narrow chisels, when you can just use an Exacto knife to stab and roll? I am no master wood carver, but the exacto seems to work fine, even on tight curves. You're only going maybe 1/32" deep most of the time, and just a bit more on the butt carve. I use the large version with a plastic type tool grip with the common angled blade. I don't see any difference in the out come. Am I missing something? Just asking.

[Acer Saccharum]

LRB, I might be missing something!   

I know if I used a knife, I'd have deep scores running all over my stock.


Bill the Ship uses a knife, so he says, and there aint no flies on his work.

[rich pierce]

I made my first "rolling stabber" tool for entirely different purposes.  It's a round ended, very sharp chisel that will perfectly stab in the ends of the half round inlet for 3/8" thimbles very efficiently and also works pretty well for bottoming the nose of the lock inlet.  Then I started to stab some carving with a little bitty tool and wanted to go faster (not an uncommon urge and one that often leads to bad outcomes).  I tried the round ended tool and it worked pretty well and had great control.  In the end a variety of tools can be used effectively but control is easier for some folks with one tool, and with another tool for other folks.  Before I tried stabbing I always used a parting tool.  They all have their merits and applications.

[JDK]

....I know if I used a knife, I'd have deep scores running all over my stock....

Tom,  I don't think there is any more danger of stray marks on the stock using an x-acto knife for stabbing and rolling than there is using these lens shaped tools.

The danger begins when one tries to cut or slice with the knife instead of stabbing with it.....that's when most slips would occur.

Enjoy, J.D.

[Acer Saccharum]

JDK, just trying to understand:  like you stab straight in, then roll the handle of the knife in the direction of the cut?

[LRB]

LRB, I might be missing something!  

I know if I used a knife, I'd have deep scores running all over my stock.


Bill the Ship uses a knife, so he says, and there aint no flies on his work.

 Pretty much, yes. As JDK said, You just stab the point in, give a little rock or roll, then move on. In tight areas, you just stab and move. I never slice in doing that. That could lead to trouble.

[Acer Saccharum]

Xacto makes several knife styles, one is like a bayonette blade, double edged. Do you use that, or the single edge, very fine point?

[tallbear]

What advantage is there in using a hand full of thin narrow chisels, when you can just use an Exacto knife to stab and roll

Wick
I think we tend to migrate towards the method we first learn and feel most comfortable with.I was fortunate that during Gary Brumfields carving class he forced us to carve using three distinct methods.
Stabbing in with gouges,Stabbing in with Gray's stamping tool and outlining with a v tool.He recommended that we do the largest amount of carving on our practice piece with the method that we were least familiar with.This showed me the importance of using all different techniques at my disposal. I will certainly give your method a try, your results are certainly impressive. In studying original work you will see that different methods were used by different original builders. In order to create a believable interpretation of original work I feel I must also be able to make use of these different methods.

Mitch Yates

[LRB]

  You're right Mitch. Before I tried any carving, 1976, I was studying Bivens' articles on carving in Rifle magazine. It just looked easier to execute a penciled line and design by stabbing in, rather than trying to learn to control a V chisel, and for me it was. I decided that rather than make special little chisles I would try it on a piece of scrap using an Exacto. It worked very well, so I never made the chisels. I also learned that carving has something in common with engraving. If the design is not good, no matter how well it is cut, it will still not be good.
  ACER, I just use the common single edge blades. There is one thing to be careful about, and that is twisting the blade and popping the point off in the wood. I usually re shape the angle a few degrees to give it more strength, although I have only popped one off. I was able to remove the broken point when I relieved the back ground.

[kutter]

I use a veiner to outline some of the lines.  I also just use a small carving knife and drag the tip thru the wood following the arcs and lines.
You keep the tool under complete control by using both hands .
You use the thumb of the tool hand to press down on and/or lock in front of the off hand to hold control the tool as you pull it backwards.
Don't try and free-hand it. There'll be long knife marks accross the stock,,maybe elsewhere.


It's easier for me to keep nice sweeping arcs that way.
I've just never had any good luck stabbing in a pattern. It's just me, as the rest of the world does fine by it. I can't keep the arcs and lines correct unless I cut them in faster.

Everyone finds a comfortable way to do different things and achieve the same results.

[Ed Wenger]

Wick, I've used Xacto knives as well, and still do for really close work.  The only thing that I had a problem with, was my fingers got really sore, lol.  I agree totally with Mitch in that we tend to gravitate to a method that works best for you.  Plenty of ways to skin a cat, and it sounds like you have a great method!

    Ed

[Acer Saccharum]

This showed me the importance of using all different techniques at my disposal.

This is it in a nut-shell.

[Paddlefoot]

I was giving some thought to trying a leather carvers swivel knife to do the cut in but I think it would still be prone to chase the grain and go astray. anyone else ever try that?

[Rasch Chronicles]

Those wire inlay stabbing tools made with a reground exacto knife and an engraver's handle might work out about the same.
I forgot which post that was...

Albert

[Acer Saccharum]

Wire inlay tools and stabbing tools are quite similar. I don't know if the slightly different requirements would would allow one set of tools to do both tasks. I don't really know what I'm talking about, so I'm going to pose some thoughts about it.


The stabbed channel for wire needs to be wide enough at the bottom to receive the wire. Will that wide channel show up if you used these tools for relief work?

The stabbing for relief caving only needs to cut the wood fibers so the background material will pop off once the layers are sliced. You really don't want a wide stabbed channel to show up at the junction of the relief and the background.

However, due to the nature of wood, that stabbed channel will close up over time or when moistened during the staining/dewhiskering process. I have heard it said that the stabbed line stains dark, making the relief visually 'pop' out.

So, you may very well be able to use wire inlay tools for your stabbing. Anyone out there know what the answer is?

Since I've already made stabbing tools, I'll use those.

Just thinking out loud.....

[Sawatis]

I was giving some thought to trying a leather carvers swivel knife to do the cut in but I think it would still be prone to chase the grain and go astray. anyone else ever try that?

concept is nice..never thought of trying something like that.  Now swivel knife blades are very thick and have pretty close to a 90 degree bevel on the cutting edge.  Might be able to take one of the filigree blades that are finer and grind em to a fine bevel and edge.  Thing to remember though is that most leather tooling is done on a flat surface and I'm not sure how well it would respond on the complex contours of a stock...
Good luck...let us know how it works...like Acer says, its all about learning and broadening the mind!
John

[Acer Saccharum]

It's hard to broaden a small mind......

This is always kinda neat when you put an idea out there, and you see all the different ways people do things. And like Mitch said, it's worth knowing about all the options on how to do the carving. On one gun, you may have to employ ten different techniques, with subtle variations of those.

[Jerry V Lape]

Something which I don't think has been discussed in this thread is the use of a small fixed blade knife with a nice curve near the point.  I was taught by Jim Kibler that such a knife could be used on some of the outline where stab in gouges might not fit too well - generally on gentle curves.  I use such a knife when the curve doesn't fit well with a #2 gouge and is not straight where a #1 would work.  The blade is carefully rocked along the line using the curved portion of the blade.  It is not dragged with a slicing motion.  This probably isn't too different than LRBs rocking Exacto technique. just uses a bit sturdier tool.  Of course things Kibler can do successfully do not necessarily ressult in similar results for me. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Let's not mention Kibler. 

[Ed Wenger]

You can use the same tool for stabbed in carving that you use for wire inlay, but then I don't use a reground Xacto knife for this...  The stabbing tool I use for wire inlay is very similar to what Acer posted photos of.  After a line is stabbed in, it's then widened with another tool.  I'll have to take some photos...


   Ed

[Acer Saccharum]

Ed, that's exellent thinking. Use the stab tools to cut the fibers. Then use wire inlay tools to widen the channel. Going over the lines/curves a second time is an opportunity to smooth things out.

[Ed Wenger]

Wasn't my idea, I certainly didn't "invent" it, LOL....  I learned the technique from Wallace Gusler.

    Ed

[Acer Saccharum]

Ed, my theory is that none of this is 'invented'. The information already exists.  200 years ago the info got passed from master to journeyman to apprentice, by word of mouth, by example. New technology made much of the tooling and techniques slip out of mainstream practices, used only by a few crazy people and backwoodsmen. Serious students like Gusler, Brumfield, Kettenburg, to name a a few, have done more for us than we can imagine.

An idea is put forth on the web, and many people will see it, take it to heart, or let it go by. But the idea is out there, and it's still alive. Then a guy like Kibler comes along and puts this stuff to use, and inspires a another whole generation of builders and artists.

To me, the transition from master/Journeyman/apprentice to a web-based program is truly fascinating. The web lack the real hands-on that you get with the old system, but it does get the ideas out there. If one augments their web knowledge with some hands-on classes, like the NMLRA offerings at Western Kentucky University, or one-on-one classes offered at the Log Cabin Shop, it goes a long way toward a modern day substitute for the master/Journeyman/apprentice program.