Author Topic: non-lead projectiles  (Read 14830 times)

Daryl

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2009, 02:52:07 AM »
yep,

I am resorting to custom loading some 225 gr all copper Barnes bullets, but keeping the pressures below 900 fps.    I

Ken



 Hey Ken - I expect you meant keep the velcoities under 900fps and that pressures would follow - wise decision.   Any load generating up to about 17,000CUP should be OK.  Don't get the speeds too low or you may end up sticking them in the barrel.  A subsequent shot on a stuck bullet will buldge the barrel or blow the cylinder or barrel, or both.

Offline axelp

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2009, 04:00:35 PM »
yeah thats right. I am not very savvy about all this... all I want to make sure is that I follow the laws as best I can, and still be able to get out there...

What is it about the physics of all copper bullets that increase the pressures so much?

Ken
Galations 2:20

Daryl

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2009, 06:52:37 PM »
 This is a Muzlelaoding site- so- send em a PM or e-mail with your questions - anything about loading and I'd be glad to help all I can.

billd

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2009, 10:59:48 PM »
How about cerro-matrix. They make many different alloys, lead free.

Am I understanding the california law correctly......you can target shoot with lead but not hunt? Is this state wide?

Offline JCKelly

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2009, 03:51:18 AM »
Brittania Metal, which is the modern lead-free version of old Pewter, sells for about $11/# from rotometals.com   Density is only about 0.264 pound/cubic inch vs 0.410 for lead, 0.354 bismuth, 0.323 copper and about 0.2843/in3 for steel.
So it won't have the ballistics you want, be roughly like steel shot vs lead in a shotgun.
Brittania Metal "A/C Pewter" melts 466F, and does make a lovely casting. If it doesn't suit for bullets, you can always go into the spoon or button business.
Personally don't know much about availability of bismuth. And where are you gonna get round copper balls the size you want?

Offline axelp

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2009, 06:37:19 PM »
the lead ban currently covers over 1/5th the state of Ca.

And target shooting with lead is ok. Upland game is ok with lead. Even tree squirrels. But larger game: deer, pig, coyote, require no lead. but the law is written where even the carrying of lead in the woods can be construed to break this law... so its a bit gray and left to the judgement of the game officer.


Galations 2:20

docwhite

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2009, 06:29:44 PM »
The possibility of using copper elongated projos in a sabot was brought up. One would think that matching the BC of elongated copper to lead ball would be easy enough- you need to do this to get the thing to stabalize in a slow twist barrel- copper is lighter than lead so matching the lead ball BC is just a question of length in copper. The sabot is another question. All I know of are made of polyethelene, and soft poly at that. Poly leaves residues in the barrel at the velocities round balls are usually shot at, which eventually gums up the bore, a combination of heat, friction, gritty BP residues doing the job. Also the poly will not expand to the depth of normal round ball grooves. They work well enuff in shallow groove inlines but not in the deeper grooves found in most RB rifles. And it is nigh onto impossible to force even soft poly into those deeper grooves even if you can find a sabot big euff to fill the grooves. So the situation, at least for now, is impossible. An alternative answer might be to use a cloth patched copper pickett style bullet, patched in cloth, but first you will have to purchase a 40 ton press and make the dies to produce them. Sounds expensive to me. Bismuth will mold, works pretty well in shotguns, I shoot geese with handloaded bismuth and get good kills, and I've never found a fragmanted bismuth BB in a goose, they go right through bone, the problem is they don't expand that I can see. I know of no studies on bismuth in larger calibers. Perhaps a tungston-matrix ball would work but you won't mold that at home. The shot is very expensive and I suspect the industrial effort for a small niche market would be prohibitive. I've brought up lots of negatives but let's not give up. Keep thinking. The answer may not be traditional but it will come. DOC

Offline JCKelly

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2009, 01:08:43 AM »
"Bismuth", actually an alloy of 97% bismuth 3% tin, seems to be a practical substitute for lead in shotguns. Bismuth is brittle, and the 3% tin addition helps make it a little less so. Bismuth is harder than lead. It melts about 100F lower than lead, should be easy to cast.

The guy who promotes bismuth alloy shot does so on the basis that it is supposed to be non-toxic. If you believe marketing guys, well fine, but me I'd still be careful with fumes, contamination of food & stuff.

Get yourself some $15/pound bismuth from rotometals.com, buy some tin & weigh out 3% tin, 97% bismuth. Cast yourself some bullets. Now you will Advance the State of the Art and find out how well such things work in a round ball muzzle loading rifle. One question might be how well does the rifling grip it. So, when you tell us all the results, include rifling depth, patch & lube material as well as caliber, twist, how much & what make of powder. 

The way things are going you will become the legendary guy who saved muzzle loading in Peoples Republic of California & other Enlightened states/countries.

keweenaw

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2009, 01:46:08 AM »
The Bevel brothers did a piece on this in Muzzle Blasts a few months ago.  One potential problem is that the alternatives are much harder than lead and don't deform so nicely when they hit the game which will make for less tissue damage, smaller wound channels, etc.  and probably more lost game.  Because of the lighter weight of pewter, etc. to get the same energy at a distance one would probably have to go up a couple calibers as shooting a 45 cal. would be more like shooting a 38 in regards to the energy. 

Tom

Offline Dphariss

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2009, 02:24:18 AM »
The Bevel brothers did a piece on this in Muzzle Blasts a few months ago.  One potential problem is that the alternatives are much harder than lead and don't deform so nicely when they hit the game which will make for less tissue damage, smaller wound channels, etc.  and probably more lost game.  Because of the lighter weight of pewter, etc. to get the same energy at a distance one would probably have to go up a couple calibers as shooting a 45 cal. would be more like shooting a 38 in regards to the energy. 

Tom

This is a minor concern with calibers over 45 and is not a problem at all with bores over 58 or so.
Energy is largely irrelevant at BP velocities and the bigger the bore the more misleading the low energy figures produced by BP  become.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline axelp

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Re: non-lead projectiles
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2009, 03:25:22 AM »
Hey this is all great info.

I will be working on this with my fellow muzzleloading collegues and if we come up with
a non-lead alternative that works, I will be happy to share it with this board.

Axe
Galations 2:20