non-lead projectiles

[axelp]

Problem: CA lead ban has ruined hunting in my local woods.

Anyone have experience with shooting non-lead projectiles out of a slow-twist roundball longrifle barrel?

A-anyone ever try bismuth for roundball?
B-100% copper?
C- Lead free Pewter?
D- silver? I'm desperate!

thanks

Axe

[Daryl]

I think moving would be cheaper than shooting Bismuth balls.  Impacts with hard objects like bones, would tend to disintegrate or break up Bismuth balls.  Lead-free Pewter?- what's that?  Copper and silver - too light, however at close range, Roundball shoots marbles.  Back home, eons ago, the game warden's son used to shoot barbles in his original 16 bores.

[Evil Monkey]

Gold has a similar density to lead and is non-toxic.

[T*O*F]

Get a smooth rifle and shoot patched ball bearings.  They can be had in all sizes and are cheaper than all the alternatives.  Unless CA has a ban on armor piercing ammo too.

[Roger Fisher]

Get a smooth rifle and shoot patched ball bearings.  They can be had in all sizes and are cheaper than all the alternatives.  Unless CA has a ban on armor piercing ammo too.

Now that sounds like your salvation.   You will be the 'only' hunter in the woods   What does the state game 'commision' say abt this?  Yes, boys and girls they are after us bit by bit.   In fact in a few mos it will be worse, seems like!  Terrible.

[Dave W]

The hypothesis that lead fragments remaining in gutpiles of game animals are poisoning the California condor led to this ban in CA.  (Nobody seems to be able explain why other birds of prey are not affected by lead outside of the condor's range/lead ban area.)

I believe that use of non-lead projectiles will quickly become an issue in many other states as well.  For example: the "study" that was done on hunter-donated venison in North Dakota and was found to contain enough lead to warrant disposing of it all.

Has anyone tried shooting a saboted copper slug out of their slow twist roundball barrel???

[Harnic]

Looks like the ages old prophesy is coming to pass.  They found it too politically tough to ban guns, so they over-regulating gun powder to make it hard to find, the industry came up with subs.  So now they ban lead.  Copper & other alternates work well in modern guns, but lead will be very difficult to replace in a muzzle loading gun.  Soon we will be firing blank loads for demonstration only using substitute powder & Piezo ignition (caps are dangerous explosives too you know!).  If government would redirect the time & money they waste making life miserable for legitimate gun owners on crime fighting, we'd all win.

[Dphariss]

Problem: CA lead ban has ruined hunting in my local woods.

Anyone have experience with shooting non-lead projectiles out of a slow-twist roundball longrifle barrel?

A-anyone ever try bismuth for roundball?
B-100% copper?
C- Lead free Pewter?
D- silver? I'm desperate!

thanks

Axe

I would try casting from lead free solder, silva-brite 100 may work OK. There are other nontoxic solders.
However, it may be "sticky" and I would coat the mould with something like mould prep to keep from "tinning" the moulds surfaces. It will require a much higher casting temp as well to flow well.
This lead ban $#@* is all BS.
The California Condor has been slowly going extinct for about 10K years now. Long before lead bullets were used. He is a obsolete ice age holdover who will likely die out no matter what. But like the "spotted owl" farce (they renamed/used a variant name for the animal in a certain region to "reduce" its numbers to cause an environmental flap) the Condor is being used for a political agenda.
We are constantly flim-flamed and conned into being regulated by such scams.

Dan

[Evil Monkey]

Dave's smoothie suggestion is a great one. However, I think we need to jump ahead a few steps and, rather than just looking for a lead substitute, start now in finding/developing a biodegradable projectile. Once the lead ban has run it's course and shooters find non-toxic alternatives, I suspect that that will be next.

[arcticap]

What about brass?

And check this out, it's actually germicidal.  So maybe it would help to heal the wounds of injured animals and also give the Condors some sort of a health boost! 

The copper in brass makes brass germicidal, via the oligodynamic effect. For example, brass doorknobs disinfect themselves of many bacteria within eight hours[5]. This effect is important in hospitals, but useful in many contexts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass




 

[Levy]

We tin the inside of copper pots to keep from poisoning ourselves with copper.

James Levy

[axelp]

Guys, 

I have heard of the brittle nature of Bismuth, but what about Bismuth and tin combined?

I am amazed that someone has not already experimented with Bismuth or Bismth/tin and has direct experience to share about it. I have asked everywhere... If I can get a sample, I am going mold some .440 ball and try it.

Ball Bearings might work in my smoothie sure nuff --I suppose I can try that. Are there any sort of pressure concerns about shooting hard projectiles that are heavily patched?

Now if the ball bearing is smaller and are heavily patched maybe with leather? then why could I not shoot it out of my rifle? I know some load work up would be in order...

I know the politics of this is really irritating---and disturbing and sad... but what is done, is done... now we have the challenge to find some alternatve that will work. Heck there is a great opportunty here to the person that figures this out... a built in and growing market to step into the ground floor on....

Axe

[Daryl]

Unfortunately, ball bearings are lighter than same size lead balls and therefore will lack lead's ballistic qualities. You are taking an already poor ballistic shape and making it much worse if using steel.  Patched in thick cloth will cause no harm. A good 12 ounce denim (.025") is better than leather.

 Let's keep this thread clean of politics - eh?

[axelp]

I agree, lets get away from the politics and try and find an alternative that will work for us traditional muzzle loader hunters in California.

What about solid copper or a mix of copper and tin, or zinc?

I am not a metalurgist ---or even very much of a smart guy. although I have been called a smart alleck....

I just want to hunt with my flintlock in my local woods and beat this!!!!

Axe

[Dphariss]

I agree, lets get away from the politics and try and find an alternative that will work for us traditional muzzle loader hunters in California.

What about solid copper or a mix of copper and tin, or zinc?

I am not a metalurgist ---or even very much of a smart guy. although I have been called a smart alleck....

I just want to hunt with my flintlock in my local woods and beat this!!!!

Axe

I did give and answer, lead free solder. Easy to get fairly heavy, non-toxic. I am sure my shallow groove 16 bore would shoot it fine. Mostly tin with small percentage of copper and silver if I recall the lable correctly.

We better not forget the politics its where this Horse S** came from. It will only get worse. Much worse.
Powder will be next and this is going to be a much tougher thing to "work around".
Dan

[Evil Monkey]

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[Evil Monkey]

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[axelp]

Lead free solder is an option I will certainly look into. Sorry I did not acknowledge your suggestion! Gold would be a very good substitute for lead, but for the obvious...

As far as the politics? Sure its important to do all we can to fight such attacks to our 2nd amendment rights etc... but lets honor the rules of this message board by taking the poltics elswhere.

I came here for the practical experience on this board that I hugely respect. I figured that by now, someone here has experimented with some lead substitutes and might save me some trouble.

Have you actually tried lead free solder yourself? If so, how'd it go?

Axe

[Old Ford2]

I don't really understand all of the issue.
Can you still shoot lead projectiles at a range? If so practice at your range, but take your tourist/hunting dollars to another state.
Inform the local business people, fish & game, and local politicians of your intent.
And pressure your local political Representative to cut all and any funding to the Condor Quacks.
You and your hunting buddies will be heard.
Old Ford

[voyageur1688]

 They are trying to do the same thing now in Minnesota with the lead. They are claiming it is in the meat of the game animals we shot and that it is causing lead poisoning in people and eagles. It hasn't passed yet but if we dont stand together to stop this it may. They will stop at nothing top take our sport and rights away from us.
 Todd

[Paddlefoot]

Ken I'm not sure if we have any options on the ammo front. I believe the law was written with wording requiring the substitute projectile to be approved or certified. This MAY NOT be the case but I have seen some info put out that would make a person believe so. The Politicos are getting better at crafting these little stinker approval issues into the laws to get around any common sense being applied to something they want to eliminate.

[axelp]

The law does not require only approved ammo, it suggests and lists approved ammo sources, but if all those sources do not work?... my understanding is if a ranger checks your ammo, and has any doubt, he will take a sample and have it tested. If it has any lead in it, you are sited after the fact. If not, then you are not.

The part about the law that is bothersome, is the possession part. I go out target shooting in the local woods all the time as the local gun range is cost prohibitive--and besides, shooting in the woods, is just more fun for me.... So if Mr Ranger has a good day, he hears me say I am target shooting, and smiles and says "good day to ya"... If he's havin a bad day, he takes my gun, takes my ammo and sites me for hunting with lead.

re: the modern all copper sabots by barnes... How poorly do they shoot out of a slow twist barrel? Are they even remotely accurate?

Axe

[Dave W]

Has anyone found any response from the smokeless powder side of the sport on teh lead-ban issue?  If there is a response or study that can refute the damaging studies it would be a good thing to understand it and support it.  I have not found anything yet, but if I do, I will be glad to post it.

This issue really affects not just blackpowder RB shooters, but everyone in the shooting sports.

Dave W

[axelp]

yep,

I have spent hours searching out options for my 1873 colt clone in order to be able to legally carry it when I am out in the woods.... The only factory .45 long colt ammo in lead-free is loaded too hot for the average colt frame... ok for Rugers but not good for Uberti's...  I am resorting to custom loading some 225 gr all copper Barnes bullets, but keeping the pressures below 900 fps. not sure how accurate these will be, but at least I can carry it in the woods....but they aint cheap folks!

I imagine that ANY older type gun will have serious handicaps regarding finding ammo that is safe to shoot --and lead-free. .22 rimfire?? anybody got a non lead round for that? dont worry its coming... at $3 dollars a shot most probably.

This really limits the hunting to modern newer guns... And restricts the usability of older guns that have been passed down thru the family... Hunting will be only for the rich... Us poor country boys wont be able to use Dad's old rifle anymore...at that point, I am done...  I have no desire to outfit myself with a 2010 johnny whizbang 5000 with a super duper spectrascope and purple poly bi-carbonate stock... I just wanna be able to grab my longrifle and go huntin now and again...

Ken

[Dphariss]

Lead free solder is an option I will certainly look into. Sorry I did not acknowledge your suggestion! Gold would be a very good substitute for lead, but for the obvious...

As far as the politics? Sure its important to do all we can to fight such attacks to our 2nd amendment rights etc... but lets honor the rules of this message board by taking the poltics elswhere.

I came here for the practical experience on this board that I hugely respect. I figured that by now, someone here has experimented with some lead substitutes and might save me some trouble.

Have you actually tried lead free solder yourself? If so, how'd it go?

Axe

No I have not tried it but I see little option in your case.
Rifles with shallow wide grooves shoot hard round balls as well as soft so it should work for some rifles at least.
I have a 66 cal that shoots hard and soft but likes a thicker patch with the softer alloys.

Dan