Big Bores

[northmn]

We have kind of beat this issue around, but I saw a thread in another forum where an individual was trying to make his double Kodiak in 12 ga into a "dangerous" game gun.  To do so he loaded 450 gr Hardcast in a sabot and thought he really had the answer.  Got 1400 fps with 777 and 150 grains.  Essentially he was duplicating a 50-90 Cartridge.  I decided not to get involved with the discussion as the modern ML shooters think they have to use plastic and make smaller rifles out of bigger rifles.  Claimed the rifle weighed 11 pounds.
Somehow I think we look at the use of the bigger bores as overkill on smaller game.  While a 12 bore is a large bore for deer, it is used in many areas in MN that do not permit rifles.  Overkill in my opinion is something hard to define.  While bigger may not be better it doesn't hurt in the slower moving ML loads.  My point is that the individual looking at the 12 bore may not have appreciated its primary application as a great gun for larger game like elk, moose or whatever and with reasonable loads OK for deer.   A 12 ga round ball weighing in at 500+ grains is nothing to sneeze at for the big stuff either.  When I looked up the Kodiak they recommended 715 RB.  The 715 RB I used to shoot in my Bess and 12 ga fowler was pretty impressive and I think with a good alloy maybe as effective as the plastic wrapped 50.  I am now starting on a deer rifle in 58.  It is more than I need but again it doesn't hurt either.

DP

[451whitworth]

i saw the same thread. it seems misguided to me also. my .72 Kodiak pounds game with roundballs. roundballs made from wheelweights would be my answer to that question. they shoot great from my rifle.

[Candle Snuffer]

Many of the misguided thoughts on other websites about some things I've  read doesn't surprise me in the least. 

I haven't seen the post, but I pretty much decided I wasn't going to venture any further then this website as it has all the information and knowledge a person could aks for, and if you can't find the answer you're seeking here, most likely you ain't going to find the right answer anywhere.

If the Kodiak has one or (both) barrel's that's smooth, why not just hunt small game with buckshot.  For deer size game use a patched round ball regardless if the barrel(s) are smooth or rifled or combination of 1 & 1...

The folks that use smoothbore trade guns .62 caliber and up make them work for all game and accept what they have and use these trade guns quite effectively.  Some folks just need to look to the old ways 'cause you ain't going to improve on them.

 

[northmn]

The Kodiak is a double rifle 1-75 twist.  Dangerous game can be an interesting category also.  In the US the big bears would qualify.  Some feel better about using big bores in bear country in case they have an encounter.  Africa has a large number of big game animals, some of which they used to hunt off horseback with very large bores.  Taylor killed elephants with a 10 ga smooth rifle.  Cartridges of the world stated that the 8 ga was popular.  They also weighed more than 11 pounds.  I reaad the other forums because I do have an interest in BP cartridges and have done some hunting with cast bullets.  Actually I do not shoot percussion as I find the BPC fills that in shotguns as well as a ML and in rifles I like the 45-70. 


DP

[BrownBear]

For frame of reference, 450 grains at 1400 is a fair approximation of standard old forster 12gauge slug ballistics.  And no shotgun hunter is going to tell you what a hot number those old forster slugs were for dangerous game, or even large game.  Factor in ballistic coefficient and his 50 cal 450 certainly has the potential to be a better penetrator than a 12 gauge RB of similar weight.  There are folks around shooting bore sized 12 gauge conicals weighing over 700 grains as I recall through their 12s.  Now that's a horse of a different color for a dangerous game round. 

I'm kinda dumfounded by the concept of "overkill."  How dead is too dead?  I guess that's reflected in my habit of using my 50 and 54 calibers to hunt snowshoe hares.   Reduced charges of course, but even those aren't necessary for headshots.  I don't use one of my 58's just because I haven't worked up light loads yet.  I do the same thing with my cartridge guns, actually prefering reduced loads in my 375 and 458's to smaller bores.  A 458 for rabbits!!!!   Sure, why not?

[northmn]

A 700 grain slug in a 12 would get your attention.  Might prefer to be mauled by the bear.  As I stated.  Sabots make a big gun into a little gun.  I do not plan on loading my 58 overly heavy, but like its down range capabilities and have found that big bullets work in a no nonsense fashion as compared to higher speed lighter bullets.

DP

[Daryl]

Not sure what forum you guys are talking about - over at nitroexpress.com - Dan Pharris and I have been pounding them about the use of big balls to the point some of them, US Canadian and Australian have built modern double sighted 12 for ball guns from shotguns for use on dangerous game from bears to water buffalo. There is always the inline crowd who, as Marty noted, think it has to be wrapped in plastic.

 The guys who have the Kodiaks in 12 bore, have been working with RB's and use up to 175gr. 777 or black powder with WW balls and are happy with the 1,600fps they are getting. A pure lead .715" ball weighs 1 1/4 ounces which is 545gr. give or take a grain. In WW, it is still over 500gr. and will smash both shoulders of a large moose, let alone a big bear which has smaller bones.  In Keith's .75 Purdey-styled rifle that Taylor built back in '86, the .735" balls had to be slowed down to just over 1,100fps to keep them inside a moose. At 150gr., nothing but exits and no bone/willow marked balls to show after the hunt- just a freezer-full of moose.  When he dropped the charge to 120gr., finally he had some big, hardly marked moose-killed balls to show at work - as long as the moose wasn't broadside.  

Taylor took his first muzzleloading moose with his first Bess using a .715" ball - range about 100 yards, with a 100gr. power charge. The ball, which I have, stopped underneath the hide on the far side.  The moose walked about 20 yards and lay down. That was a pure lead ball. Had it been WW, it would have exited. That ball is 1 1/8" in diameter.

With time, perhaps the 'boys' will earn to use patched round balls as we did.

[Dphariss]

In reading some more of Sir Samuel Bakers writings I find that he shot quite a few conicals at dangerous game. *But* he also liked the hardened round ball. It did not tend to *deflect* even when striking bone etc and penetrated as well as needed. But at long ranges the conicals were better. But note he was shooting animals like Elephant and rhino etc.
Bakers writings are available through the "Gutenberg Project" on line. Download/print/read. I just read "Wild Beasts and Their Ways".

In reading Selous you will find that of all the rifles he used cartridge or otherwise he said the old plain 4 bore smooth MLs "drove" the best. He describes shooting African Elephant and breaking the *off side shoulder* with a hard 4 bore ball.

If sized for the game a RB is perfectly adequate. I would not want to shoot African Elephant with my 16 bore rifle. But I would not hesitate to shoot AK Brown Bear with it using a hard ball. But for large dangerous game they are short range guns. Probably 50 yards or less (Baker notes 20 in "Wild Beasts"). But in Africa ranges often are very short. Read John Taylor's writings or watch some of the hunting shows on TV. Taylor stated that in many areas he hunted 20-25 yards was a long shot. For this a properly sized RB is not a disadvantage.
In "Pondoro" Taylor relates killing Rhino and Elephant with a 10 bore smooth and hardened balls in the 1930s when he ran out of ammo for his normal battery of nitro express guns. But he did not go out and mix with the herds ect. He *ambushed* the animals he shot. I saw a hunter armed with a .577 NE double provoke a charge of an African Elephant on the Outdoor Channel (?) a couple of months ago. He wanted a good frontal brain shot, which he missed and had to drop him with a shoulder shot as he turned. With a modern rifle of adequate caliber and penetration this can be done. A heavily loaded 4-6 bore ML with hard RB will *usually* stop or turn an Elephant based on my readings. But hunting dangerous game with a ML is better done with a carefully placed shot on a critter that does not know the hunter is there. Ambush or careful stalk.
Forsythe, Greener and Baker all thought that the RB was generally better for heavy game at least in MLs. Baker REALLY liked the .577 BPE in later years so long as the proper bullet was used.
It is easy for the modern mind to discount the  RB due to its poor ballsitics and "lack of penetration". But its largely bunk. Modern inline hunters often shoot saboted 44 caliber soft and HP bullets designed for the 44 mag and some of these have proven to be very poor penetrators. A hard cast bullet in a 44 mag is better bear medicine than a soft/hollow point for this reason. But these same "experts" will tell you the RB is useless.
So before buying into the modern hype concerning penetration do some research.

I have found that on broadside shots the typical "Kentucky" of 50-54 caliber used for hunting will shoot completely through deer to 140-150 yards on broadside shots with pure lead balls. So who needs more?. On a frontal "raking shot" on a deer my 16 bore with a pure lead ball made a 1" entry wound and a 3-4" diameter wound channel at the top of the heart and penetrated about 30". The only down side of this rifle is it tends to pull a lot of hair into the wound when shooting deer.
History tells us that the 75 caliber hardened RB will make one shot kills on African Elephant with 6 drams of powder when properly placed in the heart/lungs. So why put up with the recoil and potential stock (or human) damage of trying to shoot a 69-75 caliber conical with 6-8 drams of powder?
My 16 is "too big for deer" I suppose but I really like it a lot.

Dan

Entry wound from a .662 RB. pure lead, 90 yards. Mule deer buck dropped at the shot. No major bones struck. Ball passed just under the spin and exited.


Approx ballistics with 150 gr of FFG powder. For those who need to know the ME. I can exceed 3000 ft lbs at the muzzle but it is not a lot of fun to shoot. But the ME is irrelevant with a hole this large so long as velocity is high enough to give adequate penetration.  Also note that with W-W balls it will *break* 2-3" thick slabs of mudstone/limestone at 189 lasered yards with this load.

[bob in the woods]

Oh yes, this "big bore " thing .  Well, I use the "B" weight 42 and  44 in barrels in .50 cal a lot because  I love the look and handling of the rifles they make up into. I hunt with them more than any other cal.
However, my 2nd most used guns are all fowlers in .75 smoothbore, or my "Bess"
120 to 140 gr FFg, depending on what I'm after; and a patched .735 ball has never failed me. NEVER.
Hard to say that about any of my other guns.

[Dphariss]

Oh yes, this "big bore " thing .  Well, I use the "B" weight 42 and  44 in barrels in .50 cal a lot because  I love the look and handling of the rifles they make up into. I hunt with them more than any other cal.
However, my 2nd most used guns are all fowlers in .75 smoothbore, or my "Bess"
120 to 140 gr FFg, depending on what I'm after; and a patched .735 ball has never failed me. NEVER.
Hard to say that about any of my other guns.

Depends on the game, location and other factors. I always wanted a 16 bore so I finally made one up. Late English flint sporter.
I intended to shoot a Alaskan G.bear with it but funds are kinda short now and there were complications as it was first built (junk barrel). May do it yet. Getting to close to geezerhood to put it off much.
Also where I live there are increasing numbers of G. Bears so when hunting elk one might well encounter something a little more aggressive. More people keep getting mauled. Especially bow hunters imitating calf or cow elk. Bears are stalking the "cow calls". Taking away game after the shot. Just fun stuff.
I used to run around up there with 50-54s a lot. I really like Kentuckys too. But the 16 is a better hunting rifle all around for where I live.
The closest deer I killed this year was at 90 yards so I am not much into smooth bores.

Dan

[Old Ford2]

I don't know about Alaska Brown Bears, but I can say with authority, that the Kodiak double .58 is mighty bad medicine for Moose, and Caribou, also .62 cal as well.
With only moderate loads of 90 grs. 2f.
I can't say much about shooting these animals at 200-300 yds., but at 75 yds. noooo problem. They are totally awesome.
I do suppose you could use a 4 gauge, but the wheels keep getting stuck in the mud.
Old Ford

[FL-Flintlock]

There are threads going on several forums about the same topic and I find it interesting that aside from myself, no one has pointed out the fact that the maximum allowable load in the Pedersoli is either 100 or 110 grains of "black powder only". 

I know Daryl and I have discussed 12ga PRB's in emails - My loads were not black powder nor were they excessive but I have never hunted with anything that has the knock-down & killin power of a 0.715" PRB.  My powder was Alliant Blue Dot and the balls cast from WW alloy (as-cast, not heat treated) simply because it's what I had the most of at the time and they dropped at the diameter I needed.  At 40yds or more, you could litterally hear the ball hit a deer.  I and a friend of mine shot numerous deer with those loads and not a one made more than 20' from where it was when the ball hit.

I've shot WT deer with cartridges like the .375 H&H mag, 7mm Rem mag, .350 Rem mag but inside of 100yds, the field performance of the old 12ga smoothie and a PRB far exceeded anything the "magnums" ever even dreamed of doing.  I had one bad experience with a Foster slug that could have turned out very ugly and I trust them for nothing larger or tougher than a coyote anymore.  Far too much emphasis is being put on velocity and other "numbers on paper" a/k/a "sales hype".  Last gripe of the day ... why buy a 12ga then shoot a 0.503" bullet wrapped in a condom?  Why not just buy a .50 rifle and be done with it? 

Truth be known, James at Dixie Slugs is a friend of mine.  The man is a wealth of knowledge with a lifetime of experience in the industry when it comes to shotguns & loads - while I wish him all the best on this one, it's not something that I take any interest in.

[northmn]

When we talk of "overgunned" I think it is more to do with using a weapon with more power than is needed.  In some cases it is an issue of obvious recoil. There is a limit to what I want to shoot off my shoulder.  What I have seen a lot of is hunters and shooters using the big bore with modest loads.  A 12 gauge in a lighter weight fowler will kick, I had one, if not used with reasonable discretion.  I tried RBs out of my 12 that I just built and it was a little punishing off the bench.  The gun weighs about 7 pounds.  The Bess kicked because the stock was poorly designed to nail you in the cheek.  Also the term "big bore" can be relative.  To me a 58 is a big bore for deer hunting.  For hunting moose it is not.  I have found that a big bore properly made and shooting a reasonable charge is not so bad to shoot.  A Bedford county rifle made in a 58 might be a challenge to make shoot comfortably, but copies of JP Beck, Dickert, Jaeger or an English gun can accomplish it easily.  I sold the Bess and made a 12 fowler that fit and enjoyed the gun and could comfortably shoot it with heavier loads than the Bess because it fit.  As to economy, most of us build more than one rifle for ourselves anyway.  While some like to shoot targets with the gun they hunt with, I found when I used to shoot more that when you shoot a lot you can pretty much do pretty well with another weapon.  I got hooked on BPC when an individual offered to let me shoot his 45-70 in a match.  I never saw the gun before.  I won the match and beat him with his own gun.  You can shoot a 40 most of the summer and move up to a hunting gun with little problem.   I also won a aggregate with a 58 at a fairly large shoot.  Did not win any of the 3 individual matches making up the aggregate but had by far the best total score.  Used 70 grains of 3f up close and 110 at 100 yards.  Point is the big ones can be shot pretty steady comfortably without getting gunshy.   Shot a heck of a lot more then.  Couldn't do it today.

DP

[docwhite]

Fascinating subject. Great posts. I would point out that "overkill" or 'over-bore" are terms that only we moderns would use. We have the priveledge of cheap guns (relatively speaking) cheap bullets and cheap powder, we can carrry it around in a vehicle rather than on foot or horseback, have multiple sources of supply and can select a single type of game to hunt. Earlier hunters were not so fortunate. The hunters of the Eastern forests, as well as the later plains and mountian hunters of the American West and those who hunted Africa, were stuck with carrying their equipment on their back , or a horse if so fortunate, and very far from any alternate source of supply. In fact, ready resupply was impossible. The game they hunted was intermixed with other often larger game, as well as predatory humans. The threat of Grizzley bears in the American West pretty well governed what caliber was carried, as did the Big Five in Africa. You will note that the 54 caliber Flint rifles used on the Lewis and Clark expedition were largely ineffective against the grizzley, requiring many shots from many hunters to bring one down. (keep in mind there was no guide standing at their side with a 375 H&H to protect them with just in case) Also note that the calibers greatly increased after the migration to California, but then re-supply was getting easier by then as well. The Jim Bridger Hawken that I shot back in the 70's was 52 caliber, a California made RB rifle later aquired was .670. African guns have apparently always been large bored. Selous first elphant gun was a Dutch made Flint smooth-bore duck gun in 4 bore. He carried balls  and powder loose in bags slung over his shoulders and loaded the 4 bore by the handfull, using the coarse BP available in coastal trading houses. A palm full of 1F BP is about 400 gr by the way. Ranges were close, he liked 10-15 yards and heart shots were the rule made on unwary animals. Forsyth, who wrote that neat little book about RB ballistics in the 1860's, loved his 8 bore rifle. He talked about head shooting tigers at distant ranges, aiming for the eye, and regarded his 8-bore as being point blank out to 100 yards. Pont blank to him was 2" variation, up and down. My experience has been the same. 8 bores with 120 twist will shoot at 100 yards with a 2 inch apogee using 8 drams (220 gr) BP. Energy at 200 yards is still well over 1200 Ft lbs and the ball, if sighted at 100, will be 15" low. A 2 oz RB so loaded will break a moose down at less than 100 yards like breaking a matchstick. A Cape Buffalo is not so easy but a solid hit in the 'triangle of death' will throw him to the ground instantly. I guess my point is that our veiw is skewed by our own circumstances and experience, as was theirs. I suspect that to their veiw, overkill did not exist. Lethal did, and only lethal counted.

[bob in the woods]

Dan, I hear you about the longer distances . My property is heavy bush, brush with lots of up/down etc.
Most of my hunting shots are 10 to 25 yds. The smoothbore is not a problem. I've thought of building a rifle , but a .75 cal barrel, rifled, would be massive, and I like the relative lightness /balance of the smoothbore. My reason for the big bore is probably different than most, in that here in Ontario, my property is 35 acres...."Crown" land behind me. I often see other hunters on the fence lines, so I want to drop any deer as fast as possible. A 100 yd dash could mean a deer lost ; or at best, an argument!
The big bores don't destroy a lot of meat either, so when the other hunters come out [ regular gun season] I switch to the .75  .    I have been thinking of getting an Edward Marshal kit in .62 from Chambers. That might be the best of both worlds...big bore plus accuracy for those across the beaver pond shots.

[Dphariss]

Dan, I hear you about the longer distances . My property is heavy bush, brush with lots of up/down etc.
Most of my hunting shots are 10 to 25 yds. The smoothbore is not a problem. I've thought of building a rifle , but a .75 cal barrel, rifled, would be massive, and I like the relative lightness /balance of the smoothbore. My reason for the big bore is probably different than most, in that here in Ontario, my property is 35 acres...."Crown" land behind me. I often see other hunters on the fence lines, so I want to drop any deer as fast as possible. A 100 yd dash could mean a deer lost ; or at best, an argument!
The big bores don't destroy a lot of meat either, so when the other hunters come out [ regular gun season] I switch to the .75  .    I have been thinking of getting an Edward Marshal kit in .62 from Chambers. That might be the best of both worlds...big bore plus accuracy for those across the beaver pond shots.

While it depends on the deer's "attitude" and other factors it is very difficult to drop a Mule Deer in its tracks unless the brain or spine is involved. I have had both species, MD and WT cover over 200 after fairly short range fatal hits with 50s and 54s. Typical for lung/heart shot MD is 40-50 yards no matter what they are shot with (wide range of modern and vintage firearms). Though the HV stuff like a 25-06 with a light bullet will drop them in their tracks you loose a lot of meat.
The first deer I killed with the 16 bore made 55 long steps with a large hole where the top of the heart once was blood loss from the entrance wound was massive and she was not making very good time but she was moving till she dropped dead.
If I had the problem you relate I would do head shots with a 45+- caliber rifle. With a rest this is pretty easy to 50 yards or more and there is no running off and very little energy left in the ball if it exits and crosses the fence. But a tree stand would lower this risk I suppose. Stands do not occur to me since I seldom see one much less use them.
High shoulder shot is another option with any caliber. But then there is risk to the backstrap.
With the larger bores, like the 62 with a decent charge of powder  a solid neck shot, frontal or side will anchor the deer for minutes if not permanently if the bone is even closely missed. Enough time to walk up and cut their throat. Solid hit on the bone stops anything.

Dan

[Daryl]

Doc and Dan - well put.

 Today we can have the pleasure of using whatever we want & enough game has been killed by us and friends using those calibres to draw a good reference in expected results.

Bob - a .75 rifle doesn't have to be big, and 9 to 9 1/2 pounds is light to carry. Of course, to be a flinter, the forewood would have to be a bit longer and have 2 keys.


This one is .69 and has the same barrel size and length as friend Keith's. Both STAGGER moose and of course, with the moose load, anchor deer.  Weight, 9 pounds.  Accuracy loads 82gr. (3drams 3F) for plinking to 50 yards and 165gr. for serious hunting. Easy to shoot - terrific stock design and wide butt eliminate unpleasant shocks to the face or body.

Doc knows what it's like to shoot a well designed rifle, as does Dan.

[bs2]

I have been using my .73 rifled carbine for several years now.....on deer..........I backed off from 175FF to 125FF and a thick patched 550 grain RB...........have not needed a paper cartridge back up shot yet!

If you don't get a the perfect broadside shot, it will destroy a lot of meat..............probably going to back off a little...............[.625] bore.....................or maybe a .54....................really need the missing .58 cal........that would make a nice "light" rifle.

What I really need is bigger critters to shoot.
...........................................................................

FL Flinter..............I have also shot deer with a 400 H&H wildcat..............no meat lost at all. [really] Makes one heck of a blast in the quiet woods.

[Dphariss]

I think we need to rethink the term "over gunned" and perhaps look at it in context.
To the British the 54 caliber was a light stalking rifle and many thought it was at best marginal for anything but small game. They did not like to see animals run off after being shot.
The British who came to America to hunt or visit the west in the "Mountain Man" era usually had rifles with larger bores than typically used by the Americans.
As I recall Ruxton was using a 24 bore (basically a modern 58). IIRC Sir William Drummond Stewart said that his rifle, a 20 bore (62 cal) Manton I think, killed more game with less powder and lead than any rifle at the 1833 Rendezvous. Now one could speculate that this was because Stewart was not hung over while hunting but he does not mention this.
The English Sporting Rifle in flint or percussion with a fairly slow twist 66 or slower in bores over 20 is a VERY effective hunting tool.
A hunter with a 20-16-12 bore Ml rifle is no more "over gunned" than a modern hunter using a 20 or 12 bore shotgun with a rifled slug to hunt deer. I consider hunting with a 25-06 or one of the various magnums with too light bullets that destroy meat through massive "bloodshot" under 200-300 yards to be "over gunned".

Stock design is critical in a "bore" rifle and it cannot be too light. A 7 pound, or even heavier, rifle with a poor stock design even in 20 bore is not going to be a lot of fun to shoot. But a 9-10 pound rifle in 16 to 14 bore is not going to be objectionable with powder charges to 150-180 grains at least in normal hunting situations.
When shooting a ball of this size at 1600-1700 fps from the bench there can be a discomfort. But I would also point out that one becomes accustomed to the recoil and as time passes it becomes more tolerable as the shooter gets tougher. Once above 58 caliber the power is pretty dramatic and the recoil can be too. Typical American ML stock designs after the 1770s early 1780s are unsuitable, I don't consider them really suitable for calibers over 54 and 45-50 for some designs. Someone wanting to make a British sporting rifle is well advised to get TOWs plan for the original Purdey sporting rifle. The buttstock design it pretty typical well back into the flintlock era. They found a good design and used it for a very long time.
My concern was over a bad disk in my neck but the 16 bore has never bothered this, reading and engraving is worse. It is a little heavy at about 10 pounds but its very close to the weight of my full stock 54 Hawken with a 38" barrel. I would also point out that it is far less likely to cause bruising than the Hawken style rifle. The 16 bore pushes the shooter around more but hurts less.
While this style rifle would be out of context for a rev-war re-enactor it is perfect where I live being a 1790-1820 flintlock and has quickly become my favorite hunting rifle.
It meets all the criteria. Its light enough to carry for miles, it shoots as flat as necessary for the game being hunted giving 120+ yard "point blank" on deer and it has adequate power for anything I am likely to meet in while hunting. Heavy blood trails and little to no meat loss. The only down side is that its 16 to the pound when casting bullets and it uses almost twice the powder of the 54, 90 FFFG vs 150 gr of FFG.
So if you hunt in the east and want to re-create the 1750 to 1820 era use a 45-54 (I consider rifles originally made as much over 50 in this era to be anomolies) Kentucky its correct and they are effective.
If you want a larger bore then use a well laid out very early American buttstock  design, a well done Jeager or an English fowler design of the period if you want something more European.
If you hunt in the west and are 1800-1860s you can use many different things. Various "plains rifles" or English rifles or Kentuckys but bear in mind the caliber restrictions on the American designs. In the 1860s Granville Stewart then living in the Virgina City/Bannock area of Montana acquired a large bore (70 cal +- IIRC) with a Tiger engraved on the lock. He wrote that it was very effective on game but "turned him 1/2 around" with the recoil I am paraphrasing here. This can be found in "Prospecting for Gold" by Granville Stewart.
I believe the use of calibers in the 40-50 caliber ranges by Americans was determined more by economics and the need for a good supply of ammo (number for shots) on hand than by the need to stop an animal quickly. Most English hunters had the funds to afford a rifle that was 20 to 12 to the pound for deer hunting and did not need to ration their consumption of powder or lead.


Dan

[northmn]

I think the "economics" in a hunting rifle is a minor worry.  Even if a person shoots a lighter rifle quite a bit he is ahead of many hunters that pick the rifle up a week before deer season and shoot a few rounds to see if it is "in" and then go deer hunting.  I don't get enough shots at game to go broke or suffer any financial hardship shooting a larger bore.  One should shoot it before season, but I still think that even shooting a 22 helps.  Probably the biggest mistake I think people make is that they shoot too much off bench rests and not enough field style shooting.  I say this because I need to get out and shoot more in that fashion.

DP

[Dphariss]

I think the "economics" in a hunting rifle is a minor worry.  Even if a person shoots a lighter rifle quite a bit he is ahead of many hunters that pick the rifle up a week before deer season and shoot a few rounds to see if it is "in" and then go deer hunting.  I don't get enough shots at game to go broke or suffer any financial hardship shooting a larger bore.  One should shoot it before season, but I still think that even shooting a 22 helps.  Probably the biggest mistake I think people make is that they shoot too much off bench rests and not enough field style shooting.  I say this because I need to get out and shoot more in that fashion.

DP

When we read that Leonard Reedy sometimes waited YEARS to get paid for a 50 cent job we get an idea of the economics of 18th century America. If it cost a 1/2 cent a shot it was a major outlay to people who lived off what they grew and bartered for much of what they had to buy. No cow? No butter. No hogs, no bacon or lard. 
So if a 40 caliber rifle would do the job why have a 50 or 54? It costs double to shoot and is less useful for game smaller than deer. They hunted a lot. If you don't hunt you have to grow your meat. Once well established and if a good manager/lucky this is not that big a deal. But for the startup farmer killing your stock to eat was bad business. When my father was in school in the 1930s the cloak room in rural schools had guns in every corner. The kids hunted to and from school. Rabbits and other small game.
It is all too easy to fall into 20th century industrial revolution thinking where people work for money and buy their food.
Think about how long a pint of powder would last in a 40-44 verses a 50-54 or a 62. Same for lead. The 615 RB weighs 130 grains more than the 535. Its about 300 grains heavier than a 32 and over 3 times as heavy as a 40, 20 to the pound or lead vs over 70. Thinking this is not a factor with someone who cannot a pay a 50 cent repair bill for 3-4 years is not very realistic. I think this is one reason why I believe most long rifles were under 50 caliber.
I was thinking of killing a deer with the 40 this year as a test but hunting was so !@*%&@ tough I gave up on the project. Maybe next year if the population rebounds somewhat.

Dan

[northmn]

That was then, this is now.  My father in the depression commented on buying 22 shorts because they cost something like a dime and LR's were a couple of cents more.  I also think, legends aside that because they could not shoot as much as we do that shooters today are better shots.  I can afford to shoot the 54 I have and 58 I am building.  One reason is that the cost of the ammo is so much cheaper in comparisen to todays income.  If it is a luxury to shoot a bigger bore then lets enjoy it.  We are talking about "casual" shooting anyway.


DP

[Dphariss]

That was then, this is now.  My father in the depression commented on buying 22 shorts because they cost something like a dime and LR's were a couple of cents more.  I also think, legends aside that because they could not shoot as much as we do that shooters today are better shots.  I can afford to shoot the 54 I have and 58 I am building.  One reason is that the cost of the ammo is so much cheaper in comparisen to todays income.  If it is a luxury to shoot a bigger bore then lets enjoy it.  We are talking about "casual" shooting anyway.


DP

There is a difference between a game shot and a match shooter. Dad is 82 now and has traps out in interior AK right now. He is a game shot. Shooting at paper is a waste of money to him.
He has shot a lot of game of all sizes over the years and hunted the last 4 decades with an iron sighted 30-06. Running or standing was all the same. If he got a shot he killed the critter be it a squirrel with a 22 or an AK moose with his 06.
Part of this is surely his eyesight which after recent cataract surgery tested better than 20-20 again.
Hunted rabbits for the market in the depression and perhaps early 40s. A rabbit would pay a box of shells for his 22.

Dan

[smokinbuck]

I found a BIG bore at a show a couple of years ago, an .86 (8 bore) flint lock smooth bore. It was imported from Belgum by Kirkland Arms (Turner Kirkland) in the early 1950's. The story goes that they were made for the african trade because the native africans were not allowed to have cartridge guns?? They were advertised in Stoegers catalogue for $36 and were made for large and dangerous game. I don't know about all that stuff, but it is fun to shoot with 90grs of FF. The recoil is relativly mild and you can keep it on a pie plate at 50yds. This one was in unfired condition, which is far from a custom gun, the trigger is heavy and it weighs around 8-10 pounds.
Mark

[Dphariss]

Turner tried to kill an African Elephant with a 4 bore double of similar quality (I assume) but he used soft lead balls. Penetration was inadequate.
The load for your 8 bore when used for dangerous game would be 8-10 drams, perhaps more and a hardened lead ball.
With heavy charges of powder and hardened lead its a pretty serious gun.

Dan