Author Topic: Damascus Longknife  (Read 19573 times)

Rkymtn57

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Damascus Longknife
« on: September 07, 2013, 06:02:58 PM »
Would Damascus steel have been period correct during the revolution ?
Probably not readily available to most militias ?
I want to do a longknife that my grandfather may have carried.
Also where may a blade be purchased ?
Thank You , DD

Offline alyce-james

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 06:53:16 PM »
Try Mr. Wick Ellerbe, Knife Maker, he is on this site. Does outstanding work. Also check Mr. Jim Miller, Knife Maker, from Iowa. Check out his web site. Both these craftsmen are very easy to work with, just tell them what you would like to have as a blade. AJ
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 06:57:54 PM by alyce-james »
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2013, 06:58:10 PM »
 During the revolution steel would have been hard to come by. America had bloomerys, but little, or no, steel mills. So, steel was mostly recycled broken swords, worn out files, and other imported steel items.
 The technology to produce damascus steel, would have been beyond the scope of most early blacksmiths. So, more than likely the long knives were made from broken swords, or old files, and not damascus laminated steel.
 I had the opportunity to visit my great grandfathers blacksmith shop, in Arkansas, years ago. Tucked away in the space between the old log walls, and the roof rafters, was a bundle of umbrella staves, he had saved, because they were made from spring steel. He moved to Arkansas in 1886, and who knows when he salvaged the old umbrella, but good steel was still rare enough in the back country, to warrant putting it away for a special project, that late in our history.

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Rkymtn57

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2013, 07:19:27 PM »
Thank you both.
Very interesting HH , I love learning that stuff !  DD

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2013, 07:36:33 PM »
I dont know for sure but some research to find any knife made in those times in the colonies that was made with the laminated steel blade might give you your amswer. Are there any documented examples of such a thing? Interesting topic.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2013, 11:00:20 PM »
Short answer: No.

Long answer:

First of all, what do you mean by "Damascus steel?" There are at least two different processes that are called by that name. The original meaning meant a type of crucible steel imported from India into the Middle East (hence the term "Damascus"). The second meaning, most commonly used today, is a laminated blade made up of different alloys. There is also such a thing as "pattern-welding," but the term properly applies to Early Medieval blades made up of multiple bars of twisted, layered metal - a rather different process than modern layered Damascus.

Of these three meanings, the only one that might come close to being made in Colonial America is crucible steel, and I am not sure how common that might have been or what the differences between Wootz/Damascus and 18th century crucible steel are.

In any case, locally-made knives would have been extremely rare (though not non-existent). Simple butcher knives were imported by the barrel-full into the colonies and were  available quite cheap - less than the cost of a pound of gunpowder, IIRC. If you are really interested in what your grandfather (just how old are you, anyway?) carried during the Revolution, then a butcher knife or even a big folding knife is the most likely option.
As a matter of fact, I don't believe that there is much evidence for the frontiersmen carrying unusually big knives during the 18th century at all - none of the eye-witness descriptions of Revolutionary riflemen mention knives as something unusual in the way that hunting-shirts, rifles, shot pouches, rifles, tomahawks, etc, are mentioned. While the Indians referred to the Virginian as “Long Knives,” that is an ethnic name, not a description, and I think it most likely refers to swords.

If you just have to have a long, blacksmith-made knife, than there is a very small amount of evidence for such things. There is exactly one reference to swords and butcher knives made out of saw blades in James Collin’s autobiography, though I believe he is mostly talking about swords. Note that his troop of partisans were forced to this by war-induced shortages, not by poverty. Likewise, there is the Fort Ticonderoga knife, evidently lost while digging earthworks in 1777 or 1778 (I forget which) - this was probably a case where someone wanted something that wasn’t available commercially rather than being too poor to buy a factory made butcher knife. There is a knife with an antler handle found in Philadelphia in a scabbard dated 1759. Gordon Minnis in American Primitive Knives shows a medium sized knife with a pistol-grip handle that might be 18th century, and Madison Grant shows two smallish (under 5”) blades that might be 18th century as well, one found at Paoli and one with a lion head on the hilt. Note that all these knives have curved blades, and except for Minnis’ pistol-gripped example and possibly the “1759” example (the tip of which is hidden in the only available picture) all are banana shaped - an upswept blade combined with a spear-point tip (yes, the Fort Ti blade has a dropped tip, it is just pretty subtle).
You also might think about a cut-down sword.
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Offline LRB

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 11:04:09 PM »
  Shear steel was commonly used by the knife factories over seas. I don't know how much of it was made here, if any during the 18th c., but it possibly was. Before the Rev war, the English exported shear steel to the colonies in bar form. It is made by a very similar method as Damascus, only if etched does not show an intended or dramatic pattern because the steel is bars all of one simple type called blister steel, folded and welded together into a single bar. Damascus as we know it was being made in some parts of Europe, but not affordable by the general public. High tech is really not required to make Damascus or shear steel, but rather skill in forge welding. If no shear steel was available, one would need to have the means of making blister steel first, or simply use the blister steel. I suppose Damascus could be made using blister steel and wrought iron, but I don't think the results would be very good as far as edge retention. Chuck Burrows is the man to really give you a detailed answer on the old steels, but no, Damascus blades would be somewhat of an anomaly in America until the late 1960's when Bill Moran started making it over here.  Damascus is pretty, but does not cut any better than the best steel that is in it. Acually has less edge retention than a blade of mono steel if it is of the same as the best in the Damascus.

Offline LRB

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2013, 11:32:09 PM »
  Elnathan is correct about the Damascus, but in todays terms we separate the welded Damascus and Wootz as two different steels, which they are, to avoid confusion. The Wootz made by crucible in India was much superior to the welded variety, which originated as an attempt to reproduce the Wootz quality. The Indians making the Wootz had no idea themselves of what made it superior, other than it homogenized the carbon and iron in the crucible, but it, in recent history, has been discovered that the ore they used, or the flux used, was contaminated with vanadium. Vanadium assists in forming fine grain, fine carbides, and a stronger steel by blocking carbon intrusion into the grain boundaries.   

Offline Luke MacGillie

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 03:07:11 AM »
During the revolution steel would have been hard to come by. America had bloomerys, but little, or no, steel mills. So, steel was mostly recycled broken swords, worn out files, and other imported steel items.
 The technology to produce damascus steel, would have been beyond the scope of most early blacksmiths. So, more than likely the long knives were made from broken swords, or old files, and not damascus laminated steel.
 I had the opportunity to visit my great grandfathers blacksmith shop, in Arkansas, years ago. Tucked away in the space between the old log walls, and the roof rafters, was a bundle of umbrella staves, he had saved, because they were made from spring steel. He moved to Arkansas in 1886, and who knows when he salvaged the old umbrella, but good steel was still rare enough in the back country, to warrant putting it away for a special project, that late in our history.

                   Hungry Horse

AFAIK, there is one reference to making a knife out of a file, and that was a Naval dirk made out at sea.  There are no documented examples of file knives that I know of.   A file in the period was a very expensive tool that could be freshed and used again. 

On the other hand in the 1950's there was a great "How to make a knife out of a file" article in IIRC Popular Mechanics, even suggested using pieces of an antler for a handle, and that took off like a bat out of hades and you cant swing a dead possum at an event without hitting 48 antler handled file knives.....


Offline Canute Rex

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 04:50:12 PM »
I have made pattern welded Damascus and it is extremely labor intensive. It also requires welding dissimilar ferrous metals, so there is another difficulty. Very expensive. I would say with great confidence that you would not see an ordinary person in the colonies carrying a Damascus knife. Probably not even a rich person. I don't remember ever seeing a historical example of an 18th century Damascus knife from the American colonies.

whitesmith

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2013, 01:19:34 PM »
O.K.You said it was to be had in mid-evil times but not in the 1700's.It was not a lost art.blacksmiths was the first to recycle .It was very possible to have Damascus steel in 1700's more so then than any other time for the main reason there was very little steel to be had.Nothing was wasted every little piece was saved.How do you ask was a little piece used to make a knife? You pick up your odd and uneven pieces off the shop floor,stack them on top of oneanother and forge them together...In blacksmithing this is called a FAGGET weld.Now you know two things

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 04:36:45 PM »
I am probably all confused on this, but I thought the secret to making good "European" crucible spring steel, which was eventually a boon to the cutlery trade, was due to the need for spring wound clocks?

Sheffield steel makers developed a way to make crucible cast spring steel...the secret was stolen by others and used for cutlery...and soon Sheffield was a hub of the cast steel cutlery trade...(Europeans didnt understand Asian wootz or crucible steel making process for many many years after this, although they wanted to.)

Like Wick mentions, I have several older shear steel knives, and they look nothing like pattern damascus...even swords of the era made from Toledo steels etc, look nothing like pattern damascus...unless you look at steels from Asia and the mid east from the same period, that loooks like what we recognize as damascus, although technically I believe its crucible.

 So Im assuming different commercially viable production technologies had evolved in Europe that were more cost effective, and were not related to the old damascus process, or the new Asian ones.  

Now today, India and China are exporting all kinds of "patterned damascus" blades and billets (I dont know how they are really making them)...and its very inexpensive..and its showing up on all sorts of low dollar knives...used to be a custom hand forged American bladesmith type damascus steel knife was the ultimate collectors piece...
some of the cheaper mail order stuff you can get now...maybe not so much...

To answer the original question, no, during the revolution nor any time since for that matter, a common American militia riflemans knife was not likely to be damascus...so to get a basic blade like your grandfather may have had, order a regular steel one from any supply catalog...like Track, Dixie or Crazy Crow...or think about consigning a custom forged piece from someone here on the ALR boards for a really nice blade.
tc
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 05:23:46 PM by T.C.Albert »
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LURCHWV@BJS

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 05:29:49 PM »
  I've been making knives for a short time now, Damascus blades.  I use Ferric Chloride to etch the blades.  One day I accidentally put a spring steel blade into the etch solution by mistake.  I found that, although the steel was pretty much uniform throughout  there was the appearance of another steel present
  I tried other pieces of steel, over half was in the appearance of Damascus steel not saying it was.

  My point is, I use a solution to bring out the different steel layers  Before I etch the metal  it looks as uniform as any other pieces.
   Keeping this in mind,

  Couldn't it be a reasonable concept that  some of our historical edged weapons are actually?
 Damascus steel ?

   Like I've said , I'm a novice, what I know I learned through experience. And I can only comment on that .
    I haven't seen it  so therefore it didn't exist

   Rich
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 05:54:39 PM by Chapple JR »

Offline LRB

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2013, 12:38:15 AM »
O.K.You said it was to be had in mid-evil times but not in the 1700's.It was not a lost art.blacksmiths was the first to recycle .It was very possible to have Damascus steel in 1700's more so then than any other time for the main reason there was very little steel to be had.Nothing was wasted every little piece was saved.How do you ask was a little piece used to make a knife? You pick up your odd and uneven pieces off the shop floor,stack them on top of oneanother and forge them together...In blacksmithing this is called a FAGGET weld.Now you know two things

   The discussion was relative to Damascus steel in America, and not so much as to what was possible, but what was. Do you know of any blades of pattern welded Damascus made in the colonies, or the USA before the late 1960's ?

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2013, 05:28:15 AM »
Would Damascus steel have been period correct during the revolution ?
Probably not readily available to most militias ?
I want to do a longknife that my grandfather may have carried.
Also where may a blade be purchased ?
Thank You , DD

Plain carbon steel, blister steel of the time, would be the proper material.
Damascus is very old but its not that common in the western world. Possible but doubtful.

Dan
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Offline LRB

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2013, 02:48:16 PM »
 I've been making knives for a short time now, Damascus blades.  I use Ferric Chloride to etch the blades.  One day I accidentally put a spring steel blade into the etch solution by mistake.  I found that, although the steel was pretty much uniform throughout  there was the appearance of another steel present
  I tried other pieces of steel, over half was in the appearance of Damascus steel not saying it was.

  My point is, I use a solution to bring out the different steel layers  Before I etch the metal  it looks as uniform as any other pieces.
   Keeping this in mind,

  Couldn't it be a reasonable concept that  some of our historical edged weapons are actually?
 Damascus steel ?

   Like I've said , I'm a novice, what I know I learned through experience. And I can only comment on that .
    I haven't seen it  so therefore it didn't exist

   Rich

   The term spring steel covers a wide range of steels today. Many contain chrome and other alloys that can sometimes clump together and cause alloy banding in the finished steel. when processed through the rollers at the mill, these clumps are stretched making longitudinal bands. Not the best situation, but usually not too harmful, unless at the very edge of a blade. If you are using really old springs, they could be shear steel, which is made in a similar fashion as Damascus, but not quite the same. It is more of a folded lamenation structure of blister steel, which when etched will often show the weld joints. Other than that, I have no more explaination, but it is not Damascus you are seeing. 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2013, 04:04:48 PM »
Just because its modern steel does not mean its high quality and has no inclusions or is uniform or free of other flaws. Many steels have intentional flaws "built in" at the steel mill.
What is seen when etching steel, as LRB states, is surely impurities, inclusions and other flaws.
Dan
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Online 44-henry

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2013, 08:27:17 PM »
Interesting discussion. Based on the research that I have done there really was a pretty good assortment of steels to choose from. I will have to check, but I think I have seen documentation of steel production in the colonies, at least on a limited scale. Blister steel was almost certainly made on occasion, and as was said earlier, this could have been used as is. I made some blister steel awhile back and made a few pocket knives with it, my observation was that the knives hold a good edge, I even made a spring with some of it that functioned OK. It certainly would have been the cheapest steel available at the time and was probably used on a lot of low end cutlery. I added a picture of the stuff below if anyone wants to see what it looks like.

 

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 03:09:13 AM »
Phariss has it right.

One thing about an 18th century American knife steel, the smith used what was available. That would have been blister steel or shear steel (blister steel folded & forged to make it more uniform.)

The modern equivalent of what is Available, is a used Nicholson file. They use 1095 for their American made files. Not a clue what is used for the Indian files.

Regardless, if it makes a decent file it will make a decent knife. If treated right.
If you have a passion to forge the blade, make sure you anneal it after you forge it, and before you harden & temper it. Necessary to refine the grain. Will hold a better edge & be less likely to break under abuse.
No one ever abused his rifleman's knife? Sure.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2013, 03:50:14 AM »
I would also point out that my best knives, either made by me or by someone else are not damascus and I have some of those too.
So other than for looking cool Damascus does not impress me that much.

Dan
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2013, 02:20:17 PM »
Not a clue about the Indian made files? The Indians have no clue either.

Bob Roller

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2013, 12:35:19 AM »
Lots of cheap files these days are just case hardened low carbon steel, that would be my guess with anything from India or off brand Chinese makes.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2013, 04:15:20 AM »
Funny you mention that...
I had an old antique knife that was case hardened over a low carbon soft center...
And have read that often a black smith was needed in the old days to draw that case hardened skin back over the edge of a good knife that was sharpened away into the soft part...not sure how these were made, but maybe a softer steel was case hardened by packing or something in the forge?

I also have quite a few forged relics made from re purposed files...several old belt knives, farriers tools, steam power era winged mechanics screw drivers, and even a very large, heavy wood adz...the adz looks like it has dragon scales made from the old rasp teeth it was forged from...I doubt any are from the rev war era, but old files were definitely reused and forged into all kinds of things at some point in the past, including knives...and I personally don't believe they were all modern buckskinners fantasy pieces.
tc  
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 04:20:47 AM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline LRB

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2013, 01:59:19 PM »
Lots of cheap files these days are just case hardened low carbon steel, that would be my guess with anything from India or off brand Chinese makes.

   A couple of years ago, a guy on one of the knife forums had a cheap Chinese file analyzed. It had 1.35 carbon content, and was not case hardened.

Smoketown

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Re: Damascus Longknife
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2013, 05:50:01 PM »
TC,

Case hardening is best done in cyanide salts ... We did it in high school to our cold rolled steel projects.
(Imagine trying to do that today!!!)

Here is a sample of all of the various case hardening methods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_hardening



Cheers,
Smoketown