Author Topic: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes  (Read 12388 times)

Vomitus

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Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« on: September 07, 2013, 08:19:40 PM »
   How was the furniture treated on these iron(steel) mounted rifles? Browned? Blued?left to the elements?

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 08:31:52 PM »
Quote
Browned? Blued?left to the elements?
Yes
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2013, 08:34:14 PM »
You see LB:  you knew more than you thought you did!
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Vomitus

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2013, 08:44:25 PM »
  Is Tennessee humid?  ???

Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2013, 09:46:11 PM »
Sometimes and in some areas more than others.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2013, 11:55:28 PM »
avg rainfall 45-55 inches annual.  sometimes it's hot too.  

I'm about to wind up my first multi-year rifle project.

John Anderson cringes when i say i like faded bluing, as he prefers browning every time.  Everything iron eventually browns you know.  But i don't care for a full-on, heavy chocolate browning.

I'm probably going to blue/brown/rub until i get the flavor i like, because i'm going straight to the woods.  If had a few months (this year was dandy--with all the extra rain) i'd leave it white and rub it back as it browns naturally and maybe throw some cold blue to it.  

I notice the torch blue (from shaping) of my guard is hanging pretty tough.  I may try some browning over that and rub it back.

What are you going to do?  TN allows you some room for "different".
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 05:48:51 PM by WadePatton »
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Vomitus

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2013, 03:29:12 AM »
   Some of the brown has scuffed off of my Tenn forty.  A rub mark,it looks like to me.Maybe I'll "black' it and rub it back to match it's natural patina,dunno.

whetrock

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 05:40:28 AM »
I've seen several TN originals with a mottled rusty coat and a coat of varnish (linseed oil?) over top of that. Seen the entire barrel coated that way. Gummy buildup around the rear sight, etc.  Residue of varnish in the low spots on the pipes. Yellow tint here and there where it covers shiney iron. Not something most of us think of as something we want to do, but it happened.

So, with that in mind, how "authentic" do you want to go?  ;)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 05:42:14 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Vomitus

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 08:23:22 AM »
   It's near the muzzle. I may just patch the brown and try my hand at giving it a slight age.It's rubbed back to bright metal, two spots. Not scratched, just scuffed.Thought I'd ask what finishes were common,if any.
  The rest of the rifle has naturally aged very nicely.Forearm,grip and cheek show honest wear. I wish I could post a pic but photobucketofshit is screwed up.

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 04:21:56 PM »
I am assuming your are referring to iron mounted rifles.   In VA,  these were referred to as black rifles.    There is significant evidence that the mounts were charcoal blued or blackened at the forge.    By blackened, I mean heating them to form blue-black oxidation followed by dipping in oil (linseed oil) so that it catches fire and burns off leaving a black oily residue.   It looks like the barrels were either left bright to rust on their own or browned.   Some of the mounts from the 19th century definitely look like they were browned because they have such an even thick rust coating.   Of course, all of this is an educated guess based on current experience with various finishes.   Most contemporary builders of iron mounted rifles fudge by doing an aged finish to make the new rifles look like the old rifles look now.   That generally involves rusting the barrel and iron mounts to the point of pitting and then scrubbing the rust off to some point between brown and bright.    

Personally,  I like a blue/black/brown/bright finish. ;D     I am serious though.   I polish and degrease my mounts and then apply cold blue to turn them black and iodine to start them rusting.   I put them in the damp box overnight until they have a solid layer of rust on them.   I then scrub back to bright and do the process all over again as many times as required to get a fully pitted/etched surface that obscures most of the tool marks.   I don't take it as far as some who boil in bleach.   I am not going to do that for health reasons.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 04:31:29 PM by Mark Elliott »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2013, 05:36:18 PM »
 Mark is right about the linseed oil treatment on some southern mountain rifles. I had a friend that was given a bunch of iron rifle fittings that were definitely southern mountain stuff. To say they had been through a train wreck would be putting it mildly. The buttplate was a one piece unit with a narrowed waste at the heel, that was forge brazed on both sides of the bend. The triggerguard was a three piece guard like none I've ever seen, that also had a broken braze where the from extension meets the bow. I straightened the parts out for him, and cleaned the joints up for brazing. When I started to heat the parts up, I started smelling the familiar smell of linseed oil. These parts appear to have been blackened with linseed oil right out of the forge, just like hardware and other blacksmithed items were back in the day.

                         Hungry Horse

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 05:52:23 PM »
...
Personally,  I like a blue/black/brown/bright finish. ;D   ...
exactly the color i'm looking for! 

and i have plenty of Linseed Oil, raw and "boiled".  Use it on razors and strops and all non-stainless cutlery and screw threads and inside tubing...
Hold to the Wind

whetrock

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 09:59:35 PM »

The ones I was talking about had not been blued, so we wouldn’t think of them as black rifles. (With one, at first glance I thought the butt piece was brass, for the reason that it was a dull yellow. But it was just varnish over left-in-the-white iron.) Anyway, my comments about that varnish are best interpreted as “tongue in cheek”. I haven’t seen many old rifles like that, and I don’t know if it was common or just the work of overzealous heirs—thus a “refinish”. In the least, I would guess that the varnish-over-mottled-rust seems to have been an "after market" application, and not something applied by the smith.

That said, I’m very glad Mark brought up the “black rifles”. The black rifle is important to any discussion about antique VA-TN rifle finishes. (And I’m with WP. I love that black iron.)

For those of you who haven’t had the pleasure of seeing such a rifle, here is a photo of the butt piece and box of a classic example. This rifle was featured in an article by Wallace Gusler in Muzzleblast, Sept 2004, p 36-37. I’m sorry that my photo doesn’t show it, but as Gusler comments, “This rifle has survived in fine condition and retains a strong example of charcoal bluing on the back of the buttpiece. Such strong evidence of the ‘black rifle’ is seldom found. In addition to the blue finish, the double wood screw attachment on the back of the butt piece is characteristic of many sounthwest Virginia and east Tennessee rifles.” Gusler dates this piece of the “the last years of the 18th century”.


« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:17:52 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Vomitus

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 11:53:49 PM »
   Thanks for posting the pix.

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2013, 03:55:47 AM »
Pete,

If you own that rifle,  I would love to see it in person.

Mark

Offline Habu

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2013, 06:52:44 PM »
Or even more pictures. . . .

whetrock

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 09:09:09 PM »
Sorry, guys. I don't own it. (and I don't feel like I should post any more photos without the owner's permission, but maybe at a later date...)

I saw another TN rifle with heavy varnish buildup over the weekend. Very nice, delicately built .40 with a 46” barrel. And as had some others, it showed a few spots of white metal—in this case on the trigger guard return. The rest was badly rusted. This was a rifle that had not been restored, and was still about half "attic condition". (The owner had removed some of the varnish buildup from the wood.)

To me, the interesting thing about finding rifles in this gummed up condition is that someone was almost certainly using them IN THAT CONDITION up to the day that they stopped using them and set them in the closet, attic, shed, etc. I don’t think there is good reason to assume that successive generations of heirs added such layers of varnish to a rifle they weren’t using, simply in hopes of “embalming” it. The worn areas that transcend cracks, etc., show that the guns were often used and used and used until they were worn out and considered broken and useless. They weren't valued heirlooms when they were set aside. (And it seems like heirs are more likely to strip off such old finishes, naïvely thinking that they are helping an antique by “cleaning it up” and applying a new, clean layer of polyurethane.)

Observations:
(1) A few small sections of the iron were in the white (not rusted), but still covered with varnish. So somewhere early on, someone coated the iron with a varnish before that section had rusted.
(2) Most of it was rusted. Not an even, smooth finish, as with the VA “black rifle” shown above. But a “crusty” surface that I interpret as deterioration. Much of that had varnish over it, as well. I interpret that as a “post deterioration” effort at maintenance.
(3) At least some of the varnish seems to have been applied overtop of repairs and cracks, etc. Again, an effort at maintenance (rather than application by the original smith).

In this case, I think this old gun left the shop with the iron hardware in the white. (The barrel may have been treated with a finish. Don’t know.) All the rest makes an interesting study in how old shooters USED and MAINTAINED their rifles.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 09:19:10 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Vomitus

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2013, 09:24:15 PM »
   To my untrained eye,the patchbox looks like it was a later add on.The toe plate looks like it may have been pulled off so that a box latch mechanism was added where the toe plate was. The butt plate seems to overlap where the toe plate is missing. The patchbox design to me looks Va.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 09:27:54 PM by Leatherbelly »

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 02:30:04 AM »
Pete,  This is wonderful information.   Keep it coming.

whetrock

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2013, 07:33:37 PM »
Thanks for the encouragement, Mark.

Leatherbelly, I suppose the box could have been added later, but if so, then I think it was added by the same hand as built the rest. The quality of craftsmanship is the same. The finish matches. The fit is perfect. As you know, at lot of times if a box is added later, things don’t match exactly. The new guy decides more decoration is needed, or the finish is better or worse, etc.

Whether or not it was added later, I don’t think there was ever a toe plate on this gun. The butt piece does overlap at the end, as you noted. (Some old rifles of this era did have the butt piece overlap just a bit, but in its current condition it overlaps a bit more than might be expected.) The excessive overlap seems to be because there was no toe plate.

I went back and looked at other photos. You are correct in noting that there is a lot of wear, leading to a slight contour in the last inch or so, but that degree of wear is only on the box side. There is a chip missing out of the corners on both sides of the toe. On the box side, it is a triangular chip, which makes the toe on that side look a bit rounded. On the cheek piece side, it is just a small rectangular chip, affecting only the last ¼ inch or so of the toe. (Once you know what to look for, this contrast is visible in the photo above, as well.)

On the cheek piece side, the lower edge is a consistent line all the way down (except for that last ¼ inch) without any sort of step or contour. And the molding is the same width all the way down, as well, which seems to indicate that there was no additional shaping of the toe done after the initial production.

The cover for the box button release is set into the wood (nailed in place). The wood to either side of it (along the molded edge of the toe) is the same dimension at that point as it is further up the stock.

If a button release was added afterward, after a toe plate was lost, then the smith could have just fitted the release cover on the surface, like a “regular” toe plate button release. (Thus replacing a lost toe plate and adding a box release at the same time. In that event, he might not have chosen to inlet the square cover down into the wood.)

Virginia. Yes.
Gusler has found two other rifles by the same hand. At least two of these are marked by the same stamps, with the letters “G B”. (This one is so marked.) In a MB article (see ref below) he shows details of one of these, a very nicely outfitted brass mounted rifle. He attributes GB’s work to the area of Rockbridge and Botetourt Counties.

One thing to note about the related, but brass mounted and engraved rifle. That is that “GB” was not a “simple” smith who was limited to working in iron. The brass rifle has a sand cast butt piece and a sand cast trigger guard, both of design very similar to the iron mounted rifle we have been discussing here. Such observations may lend strength to the idea that in some areas, at least, the choice of brass mounted and iron mounted was simply a matter of customer preference. (The fact that most antique iron mounted rifles are not engraved more than a small amount may indicate that there was also a difference in pricing.) The point of this comment is simply to say that we should not assume that a smith built a rifle in iron just because he lacked the skill to cast brass. “GB” seems to have been equally skilled in working with both brass and iron.

Ref:
Gusler, Wallace. 2012. August. Rifles by “GB” in the Step Toe Group, Rockbridge and Botetourt Counties, Virginia. Muzzle Blast. August. p 47-50.


« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 10:18:32 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline M Tornichio

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2013, 07:54:54 PM »
Thanks for the info Whetrock.
I have often enjoyed the looks of this particular rifle. I had decided a couple of years back that I would build a similar rifle. the one piece of information that I was missing was what the buttplate looked like from the rear. I only had the pictures from the article and dimensions. I took a guess at what i thought it should look like. Much to my surprise, I am nearly identical with the original. I never finished the buttplate, but will move forward with confidence knowing that I am at least in the ball park. One thing that I find interesting is that the builder had skills, but he never joined the two butt plate pieces together. That seems odd to me, there must have been a reason, but it escapes me.
Marc

Vomitus

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2013, 08:02:30 PM »
  Great,thanks for that info.

Offline G-Man

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2013, 08:18:47 PM »
I had the pleasure of handling that rifle last year at Norris, after having studied the photos in Wallace's articles for years it was very gracious of the owner to allow me get a hands on look.  

 I am no expert when it comes to such things but for what it's worth  the hardware and box looked to be so much  in a conistent character that I have no reason to think the box was added later - it looks to be original to the piece at hte time the rifle was made.  The hardware on this rifle is really well done.  I also have seen another set of hardward and  patchbox with very similar form on a ca: 1830s restock and I think that hardware too was originally by the same hand as this gun, whoever "GB" was - probably in the 1790s.  

The hardware is very dark grey to "black" looking., depending on the light you are in  I think this rifle dates to the 1790s - definitely a lot of Virginia influence but it could be from Tennesse.  It is a real heavy piece made for a tall person with long arms - the trigger pull is long on it.  

GM
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 08:24:02 PM by G-Man »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2013, 09:11:27 PM »
Quote
Virginia. Yes.
Gusler has found two other rifles by the same hand. At least two of these are marked by the same stamps, with the letters “G B”. In a MB article (see ref below) he shows details of one of these, a very nicely outfitted brass mounted rifle. He attributes GB’s work to the area of Rockbridge and Botetourt Counties.

One thing to note about the related, but brass mounted and engraved rifle. That is that “GB” was not a “simple” smith who was limited to working in iron. The brass rifle has a sand cast butt piece and a sand cast trigger guard, both of design very similar to the iron mounted rifle we have been discussing here. Such observations may lend strength to the idea that in some areas, at least, the choice of brass mounted and iron mounted was simply a matter of customer preference. (The fact that most antique iron mounted rifles are not engraved more than a small amount may indicate that there was also a difference in pricing.) The point of this comment is simply to say that we should not assume that a smith built a rifle in iron just because he lacked the skill to cast brass. “GB” seems to have been equally skilled in working with both brass and iron.

I have always wondered if the rifle below is by the same GB. There is a chance that this rifle is a early re-stock, it has very faint areas of engraving that just don't go with the plain stock. I feel sure this rifle is from southwest VA.
Dennis


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whetrock

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Re: Early/Late NW Tenn. Mtn Rifles hardware finishes
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2013, 09:44:18 PM »
Hey Marc,
(For those who haven’t seen the article we are talking about, Gusler wrote said:
“The back plate of the butt piece is made separately without being joined to the top extension. Therefore it is retained by two screws. The center portion [of the crescent] has a considerable amount of blue-gray charcoal bluing.” [Gusler. 2004. MB. Sept. p 37])

I'm not one to argue with Wallace Gusler. I’ve learned a lot by studying his articles, and he notices details that I would have missed. Even so, I can’t help but wonder if the two pieces may have once been joined. There are several reasons why I think they may once have been.

The rough, irregular edges at the center where the edges of the crescent and extension meet match like a puzzle. If they were made as two pieces and mounted on the gun that way, then I think they would originally have had a smooth joint. Of course it is possible that the matching edges were “bruised” at the same time (set down hard on a rock, etc.), and that’s the reason for the puzzle-like match. But I think it might also be possible that the butt piece was made as follows (see my sketch), and that the bend-joint later broke apart at the point of a stress fracture. Such a fracture would also yield matching, irregular edges.



I'm pretty sure there is no brass in the joint. It was not brazed (as are some TN rifles). I cannot tell if it might have been welded, but if it was welded, it seems to have only been welded in the center. And that would be odd. The edges where the corners meet don’t seem to have been welded.

There are 9 wood screws on the gun. Seven of these are slightly domed and very neatly countersunk. (That includes the screw in the butt piece extension.) In contrast, the two screws in the crescent of the butt piece are large flat head screws and they are not countersunk. I think those two are replacements. Why would they need to be replaced? And why would the person who put them in have used larger screws than were used in the extension?

I imagine that the crescent and extension were originally joined, but that they broke apart at the bend at some time after the gun was in use. (Perhaps the same stress that broke the joint also stripped out a wood screw holding the crescent? Was that original screw lost at that time?) Perhaps, to execute a simple repair, a second hole was drilled and two larger screws put back in. Perhaps the person who executed the repair did not have the skill or tools to dome the heads and countersink the holes.

Just guessing about all this, of course. It might be possible to see more if it were easy to pull off the butt piece and look at the back side. But any effort to pull screws out of a piece this old runs a huge risk of damaging the piece. I think that most of the time, when we get to see the underside of such pieces, it’s because the piece was in need of restoration and so there was a justified reason to pull the piece off. In this case, that wouldn’t be justified. It is overall in excellent condition.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 05:55:49 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »