Author Topic: Rifle Accuracy 1776  (Read 99275 times)

Vomitus

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #225 on: January 29, 2014, 09:21:33 PM »
   I can explain this in about 3000 words. This acc...$#@*,the phone,BRB!

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #226 on: January 29, 2014, 11:52:19 PM »
Quote
Dphariss: We also have to remember that the bores of rifles used for sometime in service may not be perfect. So I think your testing is outstanding and the results are very "real world". That it was done with a period rifle is just icing on the cake.

I agree with Dan.

As a side note, I don't think there's much one could do to top this test of Huba's, other then using another/different caliber rifle that is original to the time period.  As for the question of accuracy - I feel the question has now been answered. 

Sure, I'll tinker around with this out to 200 and 300 yards with my modern material Dickert flintlocks, but the results will be irrelevant to what Huba has used, and done.

If someone has an old period flintlock of another caliber and they'd wish to give what Huba did, a try.  I'd be interested in the results.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #227 on: January 30, 2014, 12:55:04 AM »
Habu,

My apology for not being more clear that your shooting was for accuracy of the first round and overall accuracy.  I tried to make that clear, but I may not have explained that well enough.

Thanks for the clarification on the erosion at the breech.  I wasn’t sure if the powder charge kept the patched ball ahead of the corroded area or not.  

Your information on how the wind affected accuracy points out it was just as important, if not a little more important, to be able to judge the effects of wind to hit a man size target at further ranges.

What I really got excited about was your description of how you sighted the rifle at the different ranges.  This provides “real world” information on HOW a rifle could hit at longer ranges,  

Your mention that the limitations of the period sights caused one to get less accuracy out of the rifle than it would otherwise been capable of, does not surprise me in the least.  

As I mentioned in earlier posts, I’ve been discussing this thread with a person who is a better shot than I and has an impressive background in both NSSA and RB  shooting and has won a lot of Gold and Silver medals at both Regional and the World Championships of the International Muzzleloading Committee,  where  for many years the only guns one was allowed to shoot were original guns.  Just a few weeks ago, he was telling me about an original flintlock Longrifle of about the 1820 time period he bought/traded for in the early 80’s at a very good price because someone had drilled the barrel for adjustable sights.  (Yes, he considered if blasphemous as most of us would.  Grin.)   Since the rifle no longer had the original sights and because it was already in that condition, he decided to put Olympic Style sights on it and took it out and shot it at what turned out to be a maximum range of 535 yards.

He mentioned that once they figured out the windage, he and others averaged hitting a man sized silhouette 7 to 8 times out of 10 BECAUSE the sights were that good.  Of course, after that testing, he took those sights off, plugged the screw holes in the barrel and put “legal” original type sights on the rifle to shoot it in International Competition.

To Everyone,
There was an episode on the Battle of Shiloh on the History Channel within the past couple of weeks that brought out something VERY important to accurate shooting and combat effectiveness, that was just as true in the Rev War.  This goes against the original quotes about how Rangers or Riflemen could “subsist on a handful of parched corn per day, along with good water and remain in robust health for long periods of time.”  It doesn’t matter if the original person/s who wrote that were exaggerating or believed the exaggerations of others, it just wasn’t true even then.  

Nutritionists from that History Channel Show pointed out that one needs between 3,000 and 3,500 calories per day for sustained defensive combat while for sustained offensive combat, one needs about 5,000 calories per day.  As an example of modern combat rations, the “C Rats” meals my generation used right up to modern MRE meals have about 1,200 calories per meal.  They were and are SUPPOSED to have been issued for a maximum of 21 days before better “hot rations” are served, but many of us remember eating them for longer periods than that right up to the early 90’s in Somalia.)  They pointed out that the Confederate Soldiers had “used up” the calories they had on the first day of the battle in offensive combat and were therefore not physically capable of delivering the “knock out blow” on the first day.  Thus, a handful of parched corn and water will NOT keep one in effective fighting condition for very long and especially not in offensive combat.  .  

If one looks at the diet British Soldiers got here in the French and Indian War and the Revolution, it was of far better nutritional value and overall number of calories than what Americans (including Riflemen) often got.  Though it may not have significantly changed the outcomes of some or even most of the battles of the Rev War, the general lack of good rations often were a key factor in the Americans not doing as well as the British.

One of the best examples of combat fatigue from extended marching and lack of food was when Horatio Gates foolishly and against the advice of his subordinate commanders, decided to march into South Carolina through Loyalist controlled lands.  His army not only was not very combat experienced, but what made it worse was rations had been and were very low.  Gates wound up marching his men right up to their physical limits while promising them great food and Rum when they got near Camden while KNOWING there were no such rations available.  THEN to make things MUCH worse, the night before the battle, the only thing the Americans had to eat was green corn AND Gates issued molasses instead of the Rum he had promised them.  That led to rampant dysentery and destroyed the American’s combat effectiveness even though they outnumbered the British.  American Infantry, Artillery and Rifleman most assuredly were nowhere near as accurate as they otherwise might have been and lost the Battle of Camden, even though they outnumbered the British.  


Gus
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 12:57:09 AM by Artificer »

Offline Habu

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #228 on: January 30, 2014, 01:28:13 AM »
Dan, twist was about 1:48.  I say "about" because when I looked through the barrel it made most of a revolution in the length of the barrel (40.5"), but I forgot to actually measure it.  The muzzle didn't really have a "crown," whoever shortened it left it square.  After dumping powder down the bore, I laid the patching across the muzzle, set a ball on top, and pressed it in with the handle of my barlow.  A quick swipe with the blade, then push the ball down with the loading rod.  It wasn't as slick as a new barrel, but the feedback I got from the rod was more that it was "drag" on the patch rather than "roughness."  Hope that makes sense. 

On an unfired ball, there was a faint impression of the fabric from the lands.  On a fired ball, there were clear impressions from the rifling.

I was trying to to do was see what could be expected with a well-used hunting rifle, loaded and shot using written descriptions from the general period.  It was funny, after a while I kind of forgot the age of the rifle. 

Wind was a real bugbear, but I knew it would be when I started.  Shooting over the harvested soybean field gave me almost nothing to indicate the wind over the distance I was shooting.  When I used the old barn as a backstop, I was shooting over pasture and near a windbreak: I could actually read the wind all the way in.  That got interesting.

I think we are looking at the 400 yard shot reported by Hanger--or at least the calculations that went into it-- all wrong.  I don't think the Mill-Dam Shooter "missed his target" because I don't think he was using an individual officer as a target ("aiming point" maybe, but much expectation of hitting his aiming point).  I think he was aiming at the area containing the two officers/Bugle Man/3 horses, an area about 6' square.  In that sense, he HIT his target, in the same sense that you aim at a particular point on a deer's shoulder, but consider it a hit when the deer goes down. 

First off, the rifleman had evidently shot his rifle enough to have an idea of where it would hit at that range.  Maybe he was an excellent judge of distance, maybe he walked over the ground the night before to get an idea of distance to various points from the mill-dam (I would, just the same way I am constantly estimating distances between various points over ground where I hunt, or might hunt.).  In any event, he had an idea of the distance and what to expect from his rifle.   

When using the barn as a backstop, despite my best estimation of the winds, at 400 yards I often got groups that might run 36-42" tall by 5-6' wide, several feet to the side of my aiming point, due to the wind.  I posted 2 targets side-by-side about 2' apart, with the bottoms about 4' off the ground, as if they were on horseback.   Then I did my best to shoot into the wind.  Almost 60% of the time (17 of 30 shots) I either hit the individual silhouettes, between them, or right under them (where the horses would have been). 

John A. Stein

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #229 on: January 30, 2014, 01:38:44 AM »
If you read Joseph Plumb Martin's "Private Yankee Doodle" you will wonder how they even managed to survive, let alone march and fight. The Revolution soldier was in an almost always state of near starvation. John Stein

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #230 on: January 30, 2014, 01:57:34 AM »
Habu,
I don’t think we can say for certain if the Rifleman shooting at Hanger was firing at one Officer or the group.  The Silver Trimming on Tarleton’s and Hanger’s uniforms MAY have been able to be seen at that distance considering how clear Hanger mentions the day was and especially if the silver “caught the light.”   I also don’t think it matters if he was firing at one man or the group, from the results of your own tests.

You mentioned you had a difficult time “holding over” the targets for the proper elevation at 400 yards.  I’m sure the Rifleman who shot at Hanger and Tartleton had the same problem. 

The three British Soldiers were just outside or forward of the woods behind them.  IF there was a tree behind them that was high enough and in close to the right spot, I think the Rifleman would have used that as a basic aiming point and adjusted off of it for windage.   Of course if there was no tree tall enough behind the British, then the Rifleman would have tried to estimate the “hold over” as you did and found how difficult it was to hit when doing so.
Gus

Offline Habu

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #231 on: January 30, 2014, 02:01:06 AM »
Gus, no worries about questions or comments; we're all trying to figure things out. 

The sights were a problem because that darn back sight was too close to my eye.  When I handled the rifle as a teenager, the sights were fine (lower than I was used to, but I could see them fine).  But now. . . .

I turned 48 last Saturday.  Aside from age-related changes in my vision, a head injury a few years ago left me with some issues.  I have a bit of double vision; both that and the amount of correction needed seem to change through the course of the day.  The prescription in my shooting glasses is five years old because my vision isn't consistent enough to work up a new prescription.  There were times when I simply couldn't force my vision enough to use those sights.  If the rear sight were moved forward about 9-10" it would have been much easier. 

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #232 on: January 30, 2014, 02:06:00 AM »
If you read Joseph Plumb Martin's "Private Yankee Doodle" you will wonder how they even managed to survive, let alone march and fight. The Revolution soldier was in an almost always state of near starvation. John Stein

John,

I agree that most often Patriot Americans were at a minimum "malnourished" overall in that War and too many times close to starvation.  That's my point that in the physical condition many/most of the Soldiers and Riflemen were actually in during the war, they could not shoot as accurately as they did in peace time for that reason alone and not including other factors.. .  
Gus

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #233 on: January 30, 2014, 02:11:17 AM »
Gus, no worries about questions or comments; we're all trying to figure things out. 

The sights were a problem because that darn back sight was too close to my eye.  When I handled the rifle as a teenager, the sights were fine (lower than I was used to, but I could see them fine).  But now. . . .

I turned 48 last Saturday.  Aside from age-related changes in my vision, a head injury a few years ago left me with some issues.  I have a bit of double vision; both that and the amount of correction needed seem to change through the course of the day.  The prescription in my shooting glasses is five years old because my vision isn't consistent enough to work up a new prescription.  There were times when I simply couldn't force my vision enough to use those sights.  If the rear sight were moved forward about 9-10" it would have been much easier. 

Thank you for understanding.

I turned 60 this past fall and with the detached retina in my left eye that was reattached, but has left half the vision in that eye a dark cloudy blue and the cataract in my right eye the VA said was not quite large enough to operate on last fall, leaves my own vision too poor to do good testing.  Another reason I applaud you for doing these tests and in the manner you did them.
Gus

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #234 on: January 31, 2014, 07:25:35 AM »
Gus, no worries about questions or comments; we're all trying to figure things out. 

The sights were a problem because that darn back sight was too close to my eye.  When I handled the rifle as a teenager, the sights were fine (lower than I was used to, but I could see them fine).  But now. . . .

I turned 48 last Saturday.  Aside from age-related changes in my vision, a head injury a few years ago left me with some issues.  I have a bit of double vision; both that and the amount of correction needed seem to change through the course of the day.  The prescription in my shooting glasses is five years old because my vision isn't consistent enough to work up a new prescription.  There were times when I simply couldn't force my vision enough to use those sights.  If the rear sight were moved forward about 9-10" it would have been much easier. 
My shooting eye has always been a magnet for damage since I was in high school. The latest was a chip from a broken lathe tool. Took my safety glasses off and forgot to put the on again. It was just a scratch. HOWEVER, the gave me erythromycin eye ointment. I found out with the second application that I was allergic to the stuff and it caused swelling and distortion of my eye ball. Was functionally blind in one eye for a few days.  ::) Then there is the stuff I take for acid reflux that causes dry eye and will cause the eyelid to weld to the eye while asleep if I don't use ointment (basically Vaseline)...
Getting old is not for sissys....

Dan
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #235 on: February 02, 2014, 10:45:26 PM »
Lyman is marketing a device (Lyman Hawkeye tm) that has a suction cup on one end to stick to your eye-glasses lense. It has a rotating  plastic arm that has at it's end, a peep sight.  I picked one up at the Wholesale Sports last week but it's been a mite to cold to test it. I suspect in freezing temps, I might have to use tape to affix it to my right lense. When I tried it in the basement    -       eureka!!!!!!!! - clear sights!! First time in 20 years.
Daryl

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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #236 on: February 02, 2014, 11:27:57 PM »
Thanks Daryl for that heads up on the Lyman device. Something like this could add years of shooting to some of the older shots. Is this Lyman thing somewhat like the Merit optical device in actual use?

Offline Daryl

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #237 on: February 05, 2014, 06:45:26 PM »
Yes- it is called Lyman Hawkeye (tm) shooter's optic aid.

It's hold is fixed - non-adjustable - seems to work for me just aiming a rifle in the shop. I havne't shot withone yet- not sure how it will work in freezing temperatures - probably lose it.
Daryl

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Offline Habu

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #238 on: February 07, 2014, 02:53:40 AM »
I wanted to reply to Dan's note about old age that "it isn't the years, it is the miles," but when it comes to vision, that isn't the case.  As we grow older, our eyes simply don't work as well.  "Accommodation"--the eye's ability to keep multiple objects (rear sight, front sight, target) seemingly in simultaneous focus--begins to fail on us.  We see it on older rifles, where over time the rear sight has been moved forward. 

Things like the Merit (and maybe the Lyman, haven't seen it yet) help today, but for the tests I was trying to do, it seemed like it would be cheating.  (Of course, the argument could be made that correcting my vision with eyeglasses was cheating--I won't go there.)  In side-by-side tests at 100 yards, using a rifle set up with modern-style sights, using a Merit will usually gain me an additional few points.  I've never tried one with a flintlock at longer ranges. 

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #239 on: February 07, 2014, 04:27:51 AM »
Huba, I kinda look at it this way.  The testing you did is the kind of shooting done by much younger men then many of us here today, and it was no doubt done when these younger men had the good eyesight, like many of us here use to. 
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Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #240 on: February 07, 2014, 06:03:46 AM »
John,

My wife is a direct descendant of Joseph Plumb Martin on her Mother's side.  His grave is in the Sandy Point cemetery outside of Stockton Springs, ME.
Kunk

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #241 on: February 07, 2014, 06:15:24 AM »
John,

My wife is a direct descendant of Joseph Plumb Martin on her Mother's side.  His grave is in the Sandy Point cemetery outside of Stockton Springs, ME.

I feel it is a wonderful thing the National Park Service and even more the History Channel have educated so many people on his service. 

Gus 

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #242 on: February 11, 2014, 06:05:26 PM »
 that geneology stuff is great, I was reading the book Blood& Thunder byHampton Sides, that led me to looking into the rosster of men under Col Kearney, which led me to a old short book memories of a old solider by my 6th GGrandpa who fought in both the F&I and the revolutionary war, fun stuff when you start digging. by the way his name was Cpt David Perry voulntered in 1758 when he was 16 , 1759 with the provincal Rangers at Quebec, later in life in 1776 with Co8 #rd reg state of Conn, promoted to Cpt in 1777 with 4th Battalion. just follow the crumbs and it's suprising where you end  up. lot of sites out the to get you going. I happen to be a Mormon and use the church site which is unbelievable for a resourse.

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #243 on: February 11, 2014, 08:29:36 PM »
My Sister has spent a lot of time, in the last 10 years or so, researching many parts of our family tree.  She has often mentioned how the Mormon Church site/s have been invaluable in much of the research, along with other sites.

Gus.