A wet patch between shots for safety?

[moleeyes36]

At a club shoot yesterday we had an incident that could have been really tragic for one of our shooters.  He was shooting a percussion .50 caliber Lyman Great Plains Rifle with GOEX 3fg powder.  He'd been shooting for a couple of hours and he doesn't clean between shots until it gets hard to load.  This is, as you know, a practice many shooters follow all the time.  He returned from the firing line to the loading bench about 20 feet behind the firing line, put the rifle on half cock, removed the old cap and began to reload.  He poured the powder from his can into his powder measure, covered the powder can spout as required in our club, and poured the powder down the barrel.  He took a lubed patch, placed a ball on it, and using his short starter, started it down the bore.  He then took his range rod and had just started to push the ball down the bore when all $#*! broke loose. 

The rifle fired with a loud muffled sound sending the range rod and ball through the 3/4 inch plywood and shingle roof about 10 feet over his head and up through the branches of a tall pine.  The badly twisted metal rod was recovered about 25 yards out on the range.  When the range rod he was holding came flying out of the barrel it severely lacerated two of his fingers and broke one of them.  Apparently that knocked his hand out of line with the bore and the ball didn't hit him.  However, it certainly called for a fast trip to the emergency room after we got all the bleeding stopped.

Our best guess as to what caused the ignition was a smoldering ember back in the patent breech or even in the flash channel that was far enough back that the powder poured in the barrel didn't initially contact it.  However, when he started the patched ball down the bore the resulting air being compressed ahead of the ball pushed the powder onto the ember. 

I think there is a very good chance that had he wiped the bore with a wet patch between shots this might not have happened because (1) he might have contacted the ember with the wet patch and put it out (2) the compressed air ahead of the wet patch might have caused the ember to flare up and burn out (3) the extra time required to wipe the bore with a wet patch might have allowed the ember to die out on its own. 

I always wipe the bore between shots with a wet patch because it seems to improve accuracy for me.  But the added safety aspect is something to think about.

Mole Eyes

[jamesthomas]

 Wow!! that's the first time EVER  That I've heard of this happening. I bet the compressed air caused an ember to flare up. I've never believed that folks can have a tight enough combo to wipe the bore clean as they load. I use a .22 pillow ticking patch with a .490 roundball  in a Green Mountain barrel. Its a very tight combo but I still have to wipe with a damp patch every 3rd shot or it gets to dirty to load.

[PPatch]

Y'all are saying "wet patch" - What is the patch wet with, alcohol?

dp

[moleeyes36]

Heaven knows everyone has their favorite patch lube and their favorite cleaning solution.  I personally prefer a wiping solution of 50/50 water and 90 or 99% isopropyl alcohol.  I spray enough on a cleaning patch to thoroughly dampen (not soak) a cleaning patch, run it down the bore, and follow that up with a dry patch.  It leaves a pretty clean and very dry barrel.  This works for me but I also don't use greasy, heavy patch lubes.

Mole Eyes 

[jamesthomas]

PPATCH, I use 90% alcohol using both sides of the patch. The Alcohol dries almost instantly. It keeps the bore in the same shape shot after shot.

[LIBERTY]

I always leave my fired cap on until I'm on the firing line and then remove it and install a new cap thus I hope to cut down on the air going thru the powder charge and igniting the powder. Also I doubt that a wet patch would extinguish a glowing ember in my breech or the flash channel as both are not reached by a cleaning patch.FRJ

[smokinbuck]

I heard of this happening at Friendship a number of years ago. Once again the ball handle on the rod pushed the shooter's hand away from the ball. I use a spit patch and a dry patch between shots.
Mark

[moleeyes36]

Heaven knows folks can do whatever they want, but I don't agree that the approach of leaving the old cap on the nipple is a good plan if you're trying to reduce the chance of an ember igniting a fresh powder charge.  Reducing the amount of air will only allow an ember to smolder longer like banking a wood stove at night.  A wet cleaning patch will probably extinguish an ember if it makes contact which it will usually do unless it's lodged in the back of the patent breech or in its flash channel.  That's one of the drawbacks of a cap lock gun with a patent breech.   

In my view, if you don't remove the old cap and put the hammer on half cock then run a wiping patch or two down the bore (see points 2 and 3 in my previous post) before you put powder down the barrel you pays your money and takes your chances.  A lot of shooters do just that, I only hope they don't do it when they're next to me at the loading bench.

Mole Eyes

[Frizzen]

Thats why I always wipe between shots. I learned this 50 years ago. Even on my pistols. And something else
all of my steel ramrods have a round wood ball on top to push your hand out of the way just in case. Those
guys that use the antler horns on the end of their rod scare me. Saw a guy that lost his hand when one of
them went up through it. A smooth round ball will push your hand out of the way.

[moleeyes36]

Phil, you may have hit on what happen to the guy at our Saturday shoot.  His steel range rod had a wooden ball on the end and something pushed his hand out of the way so the ball missed him.  It appears that the large jag on the rod may have clipped him and done the damage. 

Mole Eyes

[Standing Bear]

I wipe every shot using a flannel cleaning patch dampened by laying it on my tongue. One pass in and out.  Next shot I turn it over and repeat 
TC

[moleeyes36]

TC, that's an effective way to do it as long as you remember to turn it over for the second shot.  If you forget and put the used side on your tongue it must taste pretty "tangy". 

Mole Eyes

[Hungry Horse]

 The likely suspect is not the patch, ball, or powder, it's  the "range rod". A metal range rod, with a nice comfortable handle, allows you to drive the ball down the barrel too forcefully, and too fast, (usually a single stroke). Can you say fire piston ?

                          Hungry   Horse

[Long Ears]

Fire Piston! Really or is this one of those "it could happen" deals? Do we have a documented case or better yet can you demonstrate this? I would think you would really have to create some velosity for this to actually happen. Bob

[WadePatton]

Fire piston requires unvented breech in my experience.

Back to the OP (original post of thread), NO i'm not going to wipe for safety.  Your range or range officer may require it.  The state/fed/reg agency may pass laws requiring it.  Lots of folks may adopt that practice, but i don't plan to.

Life is too short to spend too much time (a personal decision) over-safetyfying every aspect of everything we do all the time. Sometimes i strike the (book) match without even closing the cover.  

Safe shootin' y'all.

[moleeyes36]

Fire piston requires unvented breech in my experience.

Back to the OP (original post of thread), NO i'm not going to wipe for safety.  Your range or range officer may require it.  The state/fed/reg agency may pass laws requiring it.  Lots of folks may adopt that practice, but i don't plan to.

Life is too short to spend too much time (a personal decision) over-safetyfying every aspect of everything we do all the time. Sometimes i strike the (book) match without even closing the cover.  

Safe shootin' y'all.

I don't think anybody cares if you wipe between shots or not, nor did anyone tell you too.  Take a deep breath and relax.

[duca]

That"s way I always blow down the Barrel After my Last shot! I shoot a Flint and watch the stream of smoke come out of the touch hole till it stops! Let see what kind of discussion THAT brings up. Lol. 

[Hungry Horse]

 I can only tell you guys, that in the forty plus years I've been in this game, I have been around several unexplained discharges, and heard of many more. The one consistent piece of evidence, is that none of the ones I've been around, or heard of from reliable sources, were using the guns ramrod. They were all were using a range rod of some type. I don't know why people will believe in the old smoldering crud in the breech theory, that can't be proven, but won't even consider the fire piston theory, who's proof is just as elusive.

                   Hungry Horse

[sydney]

Wade--Some of your posts are a mystery to me--Why would you encourage
           people /new shooters to do any of the following 
           -drink dirty water full of chemicals
           Not follow range officers directions
            Local or state safety laws
            As if our shooting sports don t have enough problems
            Think about the shooter next to you
               Sydney

[Old Bob]

I don't know about the fire piston effect (I think it would need to be tighter and seal better anyways), but leaving the cap on or otherwise plugging the vent would probably prevent a cookoff. Those of you familiar with ML artillery practice will remember one of the steps known as "thumbing the vent" where a crewman wearing a thumbstall  covers the vent to  prevent air movement through it when a charge was rammed home. I personally remove the cap before loading simply because if it is tight, the air pressure can cause the bullet to rise back up after the rod is removed. But I wipe between shots anyway for consistency.

[Jerry V Lape]

Duca, explain how you blow down the muzzle without pointing the muzzle of your gun in an unsafe direction?  If you are using a blow tube so your head isn't over the muzzle please proceed as you have been.  If you are blowing directly into the muzzle I would like to dissuade you from continuing this unsafe practice which violates both the first and  second rules of gun handling safety" "Treat every firearm as if it were loaded" and  "Always point the muzzle in a safe direction".   I would add a third cautionary rule - please don't encourage others to indulge in unsafe practices. 

[WadePatton]

Wade--Some of your posts are a mystery to me--Why would you encourage
           people /new shooters to do any of the following 
           -drink dirty water full of chemicals
           Not follow range officers directions
            Local or state safety laws
            As if our shooting sports don t have enough problems
            Think about the shooter next to you
               Sydney

because i'm a wild hair.  pay me no mind.  and it's supposed to be a free country. 

also i didn't say that i would disobey any range officer ever. 

you don't get me at all, don't worry about it.  cheers.

[WadePatton]

.... Sometimes i strike the (book) match without even closing the cover.  

Safe shootin' y'all.

I don't think anybody cares if you wipe between shots or not, nor did anyone tell you too.  Take a deep breath and relax.

I was just taking the other stance.  All previous replies had been on the other side of the fence.  Nothing wrong with that i don't reckon.    I'm all sorts of relaxed.  

[Leatherbark]

Fire Piston! Really or is this one of those "it could happen" deals? Do we have a documented case or better yet can you demonstrate this? I would think you would really have to create some velosity for this to actually happen. Bob

Didn't set any powder off but I was cleaning the oil out of my bore once upon a time with 90% alcohol and really pushing down hard and fast on the steel range rod.  Before I cleaned I squirted some of the 90% alcohol down the bore.  I pushed really hard and fast on the range rod and all of a sudden "Kapow" came out of my touchhole.  Must have diesel'd  the alcohol and ignited it from quick compression.  A fellow shooter looked at me and said "What was that"?

Bob

[Long John]

The "fire piston" and dieseling are both examples of the Universal Gas Law in physics.  P₁V₁/T₁ = P₂V₂/T₂.  "T" is in degrees Kelvin.  Since "normal" room temperature is 273 K if I rapidly reduce the volume by 1/2 I will double the temperature to 546 K.  That will take a pressure of twice atmosphereic pressure or about 29 pounds.  The ignition temperature of black powder is in the neighborhood of 783 K (950 F).  So it will requre a very rapid reduction in volume bya factor of about 3 with a pressure of almost 60 pounds to achieve ignition temperatures.  So it is "possible" for a strong person using a stout rod with a big handle to produce sufficient pressure to achieve ignition of black powder. BUT.........
There must be no heat loss to the barrel steel and no leakage of the air out through the vent.

These are very important limitations!

Best Regards,
John Cholin