A wet patch between shots for safety?

[SCLoyalist]

Here's a link to the equations related to a fire piston.
http://www.survivalschool.com/articles/Fire_Making/How_a_Fire_Piston_Works.htm

Like Long John and Old Bob said, one key to achieving a temperature increase is no leakage of gas.   With powder down the bore, I believe powder would form a dam and prevent much air loss that way, but air  leakage around the patch on the jag would probably be considerable unless the patch were really wet (ever had suction suck a patch off the jag and back down the barrel or a rod kind of bounce back a few inches when you took your hand off it?  That's probably the level of gas seal you need to get a fire piston effect.)

The only nit I'd pick with Long J's analysis  concerns his units of pressure.   Pounds is a unit of force, pressure is force (or pounds)  per unit area and would be expressed as pounds per square inch.   So if I apply 15 pounds of force to a cleaning or loading rod,  the pressure is going to be 15 lbs divided by the area of the bore, which for a .50 cal is going to be about 3/16 inch, for a psi around 75 lbs per square inch.   (Actually,  pressure will be less than that because some of the force applied to the rod has to overcome the friction of a tightly patched ball against the bore as you push it down.)

I've never seen a fire piston more than a foot long, so I think the best chance  of  seeing a fire piston effect in a long gun would be to push a tightly patched ball down the bore slowly until the last 6 or 8 inches, and then pushing as hard and fast as you can.   Or, since this is a condition we're trying to avoid, you should push the ball all the way down slow and smooth and let air bleed out around the jag.

[Long Ears]

This forum is amazing. Thank you gentlemen for explaining how the fire piston theory is unlikely but maybe not impossible. I get where 40 years of experience you can develop opinions and theories most of them have kept us alive for quite a few years. I also have seen some accidental discharges and after all of the heads cool, I try to first eliminate the guy operating the machine, tool or firearm. Most times that is nearly impossible. We screw up or make mistakes. That is why we need to always have that muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Always. Bob

[Candle Snuffer]

I, like many here, have been shooting these old traditional muzzle loaders for near 40 years (38), and I have yet to see one mishap on the firing line regardless if folks are running a damp patch after their shot or not.  For a very long time, blowing down your barrel after the shot was a long time accepted exercise after firing, however in this political correct world we live in now, it's unacceptable,,, but Remington can continue to put out their 700 which has countless lawsuits against them for slam firing?  I'll admit, I'm old school, and I still blow down my barrel after my shot.  I know whether or not my rifle went off.  Apparently in today's world there are those who don't know???  Run a damp patch if it makes you feel better.  Try to explain the unexplainable if it makes you feel better.  Now if the rules say no blowing down the barrel and you want to shoot at that particular event, then abide by the rules, or don't go.

Just my thoughts on some of the topics bought up here in this thread.

[Dphariss]

Wow!! that's the first time EVER  That I've heard of this happening. I bet the compressed air caused an ember to flare up. I've never believed that folks can have a tight enough combo to wipe the bore clean as they load. I use a .22 pillow ticking patch with a .490 roundball  in a Green Mountain barrel. Its a very tight combo but I still have to wipe with a damp patch every 3rd shot or it gets to dirty to load.

Its happened numerous times at Friendship. First one I read of back in the 60s was a pistol and the shooter put a rod and ball through his wrist. Breech was found to he heavily fouled and was thought to hold a hot spot that ignited the charge when it was rammed.
There have been incidents on the trap range and one or two others I don't recall the details of.
All that is needed is a thick build up of fouling with nooks and crannies. If they hold heat over the ignition temp of the powder and the powder contacts or is pressed against the hot spot when the load is rammed ignition will occur. Given the 2000+ burn temp all that is needed is a place that is somewhat insulated to keep the temp over about 450 degrees.

Dan

[Bob Roller]

I usually blow a long breath ACROSS the muzzle and create a vacuum that seems to clear
the bore. I'll resume that method if I can ever finish the rifle I have started.
I have seen the TV special on the Remington 700 and can't understand why the fix wasn't
applied YEARS ago.
Bob Roller
 

[WadePatton]

I reckon i can tan a deer trachea (for a blow pipe) and hang that on my string with the (short) starter.  Animal parts are always p/c right? 

[nosrettap1958]

Familiarity breeds contempt.

[smylee grouch]

I dont blow directly down the barrel anymore but sometimes blow into a cuped hand on the edge of the muzzle and get some air flow through the barrel.

[Pvt. Lon Grifle]

I see not one speculation about how that fellow maintained his caplock. Likely the same as those who blow out their caplock's drum on the line.  NEGLECT !

Lon

[zimmerstutzen]

Back in the early 1970's when I started, I read the advice to swab between shots to reduce the chance of a hot ember igniting the next charge.   This was especially true with paper cartridges. 

It isn't that a wet patch would put the ember out, but that the air flushed in and out would make the ember burn itself out or blow it out. 

Down at the Daniel Morgan, years ago, the shooter next to me had a gun discharge as he walked from the loading bench to the firing line.  The hammer of his percussion cap pistol was still at half cock and the gun had not been capped yet.  Thank God he had the pistol pointed in the air.   Don't know why or how it happened.  Something touched the powder off. 

In my larger bore firearms and cannon, I not only swab between shots but wait a fair amount of time before reloading.  Only because 40 years ago, I read that it was the thing to do.   

[moleeyes36]

No, Pvt., the gun was not poorly maintained or neglected.  The man takes good care of his firearms, modern and muzzle loading arms as well. 

Mole Eyes

[Dphariss]

No, Pvt., the gun was not poorly maintained or neglected.  The man takes good care of his firearms, modern and muzzle loading arms as well. 

Mole Eyes

To really determine this requires debreeching.
Its surprising what can be found at times.
The fire piston thing? Seems like we would have more incidents if this were the case.
Also from what I have read excess fouling is usually present due to long strings of shots without cleaning. Even cleaning the bore will not completely solve this problem since the buildup is in the breech.

Dan

[Dphariss]

The "fire piston" and dieseling are both examples of the Universal Gas Law in physics.  P₁V₁/T₁ = P₂V₂/T₂.  "T" is in degrees Kelvin.  Since "normal" room temperature is 273 K if I rapidly reduce the volume by 1/2 I will double the temperature to 546 K.  That will take a pressure of twice atmosphereic pressure or about 29 pounds.  The ignition temperature of black powder is in the neighborhood of 783 K (950 F).  So it will requre a very rapid reduction in volume bya factor of about 3 with a pressure of almost 60 pounds to achieve ignition temperatures.  So it is "possible" for a strong person using a stout rod with a big handle to produce sufficient pressure to achieve ignition of black powder. BUT.........
There must be no heat loss to the barrel steel and no leakage of the air out through the vent.

These are very important limitations!

Best Regards,
John Cholin

If BP had an ignition temp this high it would be as easy to buy as Pyrodex or Smokeless since its low ignition temp is the primary reason its on the "explosives" list. I believe the ignition temp is somewhere around 570 degrees F. Though I have read of lower temps being cited. Pyrodex is about 700 and I did not bother to look up smokeless.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I usually blow a long breath ACROSS the muzzle and create a vacuum that seems to clear
the bore. I'll resume that method if I can ever finish the rifle I have started.
I have seen the TV special on the Remington 700 and can't understand why the fix wasn't
applied YEARS ago.
Bob Roller
 

Several reasons I suspect. First even the people who had ADs with a 700 and were really upset could not get it to happen again in most if not all cases.
Next is not admitting you have a problem. If you admit there is a problem then more lawsuits start.
This also applies to some aspects of ML shooting and/or I should say "side lock shooting" since it applies to barrels (Remington had a problem with barrel steel too) and particularly in this discussion the high pressure contact points of the sear and tumbler. Locks wear out. Takes a lot of shooting but I know people that have shot a LOT of rounds through various old designs and things do wear out. 10000 rounds will result in at least one lock rebuild. Some of the locks we buy for MLs are unfit for service out of the box, as Bob well knows.

Dan

Dan

[Pete G.]

Proper loading of a cannon requires a thumb stall to be applied to the vent during the loading procedure. It has been part of the safety measures for a long, long time. Early military manuals all stressed to plug the vent to keep from fanning a live ember. The bore was also sponged between firings. These procedures were NOT arrived at by conjecture; they were learned from hard experience. A rifle barrel is no different, other than they are less likely to have an ember since they are not loaded with a charge contained in a cloth bag.

It might also be worthwile to note that prior to these procedures being pretty much universally implemented guns crews were often manned by condemned prisoners chained to the guns. If they survived they might earn their freedom (perhaps there is a place for politicians in the shooting sports).

Keep in mind that removing the spent cap and not wiping are the exact opposite of these established procedures.

[smylee grouch]

Not trying to wander too far off the topic but of any or all documented cases of the early discharges that we are talking about, are they confined to one ignition type, percussion or flint, or are there an equal amount of each?

[moleeyes36]

A flintlock rifle that has a breech plug with a flat face, not one with a cavity in it like a patent breech has, leaves little opportunity for an ember to hide in the bore.  If you wipe with a damp/wet patch between shots you will probably have no problems.  Before someone gets their knickers in a knot, note I said probably.

I've only had experience with one early discharge, and that's the one I described at the beginning of this thread.  That guy was shooting a percussion Lyman Great Plains Rifle, which has a patent style breech.  He has since told me that, as he always does. he had not put the rifle on half cock and removed the old cap.  He had left the hammer down on the old cap, did not wipe the bore (and hadn't in several shots), and started the reloading.  When we picked up his rifle after the discharge, the hammer was back and we apparently incorrectly assumed he had moved it back.  Perhaps it was back from striking something when he dropped it or perhaps it was from the force of the discharge.  Draw your own conclusions.

Mole Eyes 

[Dphariss]

Proper loading of a cannon requires a thumb stall to be applied to the vent during the loading procedure. It has been part of the safety measures for a long, long time. Early military manuals all stressed to plug the vent to keep from fanning a live ember. The bore was also sponged between firings. These procedures were NOT arrived at by conjecture; they were learned from hard experience. A rifle barrel is no different, other than they are less likely to have an ember since they are not loaded with a charge contained in a cloth bag.

It might also be worthwile to note that prior to these procedures being pretty much universally implemented guns crews were often manned by condemned prisoners chained to the guns. If they survived they might earn their freedom (perhaps there is a place for politicians in the shooting sports).

Keep in mind that removing the spent cap and not wiping are the exact opposite of these established procedures.

The "stopping the vent" was to kill any fire in the parts of the cartridge, often a wool bag, still in the bore. It was then wormed out and the bore wet mopped. The wool bag prevented the powder from being excessively wet by the wet bore.
They did not require stopping the vent of a musket since the paper was a wad in FRONT of the powder charge.
Stopping the vent will do nothing about a hot spot in the fouling.

Dan

[Hungry Horse]

While winnowing through the mountain of information in this thread, trying to find something other than theory, I realized, I don't recall one incident where a flintlock had an unexplained discharge. Oh, I've seen plenty of "unplanned" discharges with flintlocks, but none unexplained. What is everybody else's experience in this area?

                                  Hungry Horse

[Candle Snuffer]

While winnowing through the mountain of information in this thread, trying to find something other than theory, I realized, I don't recall one incident where a flintlock had an unexplained discharge. Oh, I've seen plenty of "unplanned" discharges with flintlocks, but none unexplained. What is everybody else's experience in this area?

                                  Hungry Horse

As I said in my post earlier, I don't recall any incidents of a muzzle loader (cap or flint) going off when it shouldn't have, and this spans 38+ years of shooting, from organized matches to unorganized gatherings, hunting, solo range trips, and just plain ol' "general shooting of these smoke poles.  Perhaps I'm missing something, and I'm glad I am since I can not report on one incident.

[Dphariss]

While winnowing through the mountain of information in this thread, trying to find something other than theory, I realized, I don't recall one incident where a flintlock had an unexplained discharge. Oh, I've seen plenty of "unplanned" discharges with flintlocks, but none unexplained. What is everybody else's experience in this area?

                                  Hungry Horse

As I said in my post earlier, I don't recall any incidents of a muzzle loader (cap or flint) going off when it shouldn't have, and this spans 38+ years of shooting, from organized matches to unorganized gatherings, hunting, solo range trips, and just plain ol' "general shooting of these smoke poles.  Perhaps I'm missing something, and I'm glad I am since I can not report on one incident.

Its been in Muzzle Blasts at least twice and I think times, that I know of the last I heard of was a shotgunner on the trap range.

Dan

[Dogshirt]

I have to agree with CandleSnuffer, I've never had any first hand knowledge of an AD in 40ish years.
I've heard stories, a friend of a friend, I knew this guy, etc. But no first hand, or even reliable second hand.
Now, STUPID mistakes I've seen, but not what has been described here.

[blunderbuss]

  If you want to see some idiots in action see'' Bump loading a Napoleonic musket'' on youtube They are seeing how fast they can load and fire a smooth bore musket .They use an undersized ball pour the powder in , spit the ball down the bore then tap the weapon on the ground to seat it. They can do this 7 times a minute. I commented that I thought this was dangerous as I have seen premature discharges twice no one was hurt either time as the weapon  just flashes in the shooters face. They called me a safety Nazi and not to get back on the site (a badge I'll wear with honor) The first rule of shooting is not to point a  weapon at your self or anyone else.

Blunderbuss
 

[little joe]

Lets take the NMLRA for instance, a long list of safety rules and every now and then a new one added, Usually when one is added someone has paid with the new rule with blood, treasure and possibly there life.

[fdf]

Every safety rule is the result from someone being injured.

I could read the safety rules at work and tell who was injured for the most part.