Author Topic: Photography not allowed  (Read 8479 times)

Offline rjpalmer

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Photography not allowed
« on: September 16, 2013, 06:55:09 AM »
I have attended several longrifle collector's shows held each Spring at Bushy Run Battlefield and have enjoyed meeting and talking to the craftsmen and collectors that display their wares. l'm curious why there are no parts or supplies offered for sale and why photography is especially prohibited. I always regret not being able to take a quick photo of a displayed rifle. I realize this would be a problem when crowds are large, but often times the number of visitors is quite sparse.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 09:31:31 PM »
Often times museums and shows will forbid photography because there is no way to control the use of those images. Photos and information in the image or attached as text can provide information to persons who would use it to locate and gain access to items for pilferage.

Thieves are making use of online images to assist them in gaining access, locating items, and geting an inventory of what of value is there. Consider the photos that are posted online when you sell or purchase a house. Those photos never go away, even when the listing is removed and the MLS no longer shows the property. Don't ever allow images of your home to show items of value--art, jewelry, firearms, rare vehicles, etc.--on real estate websites. They're like all cyberspace: virtually permanent.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2013, 12:14:55 AM »
Very good points, and valid.  HOWEVER, the prohibition on photography began long before the internet gained popular traction.  And absent the online concern, it is still all about CONTROL, for various reasons.  Ever notice how old 1940s-1960s auction catalogs (showing a good number of pieces we all know and love) are snapped up and hoarded?  Think about that.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

eddillon

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2013, 01:40:12 AM »
I havn't tried to take photos in museums in the USA but have been able to take unlimited photos in German museums without prohibitions except for no flash.  Some charged a small fee(2-3 Euros) and gave sticky tags with a symbolic camera to be displayed. 

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2013, 02:01:17 AM »
The photography prohibition is all about legal privacy and property rights.   In order to commercially use a photo of an object,  it is accepted that you get the permission of the property owner.    This is not strictly necessary under copyright law, but it is accepted convention.   There is another issue with regard to copyright.   Anything made by human hands is subject to copyright.   That is images of a copyrighted object may not be published without the permission and, most likely, compensation of the copyright holder.   Under current US copyright law,  the creator of an object automatically holds the copyright  on that object for his/her lifetime plus 70 years.   For most antique firearms, certainly most flintlocks,  they have long since entered the public domain, but their owners jealously guard access to these items and because of that, you must have their written permission to use photographs of them.   Since most people either don't know or care about copyright and privacy law,  gun shows just prohibit all photography.   You can always ask permission to photograph a gun outside the show venue.

I make part of my living by doing commercial photography, and I must get signed releases for each piece of property, real or personal, that I shoot and releases from each person that I shoot such that they would be recognizable.   This is usually all done before the first frame is snapped.   Now,  after you take a photo,  that photo is copyright to the photographer unless they are working "for hire".     You can't reproduce that photo without permission of the photographer, but the photographer can't give you that permission unless him/her has gotten the proper releases from the property owners or individuals pictured.    There can be a long chain of paperwork required to legally use a photo.   It is all governed by some type of contract, which is what a release is.    There must be some form of compensation to a property owner of individual for them to legally enter into a contract to give uou permission to use their image.   Sometimes the compensation is a $1, sometimes it is copies of the photograph,  sometimes it is a lot of money if the image of the object warrants that.   The bottom line is that the law recognizes that images of human works have value and the creator or owner must give permission and be compensated in some way.   Otherwise,  taking and using the image is the same as stealing.   

Just so you know,  contacts for photography are all about copyright and who can do what with the photographs and when.   Most photography contracts are actually licenses that give the client the right to use the photographs in a certain way for a certain period of time.   It is common for the client to have an exclusive use of the photos for a period of 2 years for the iniital purpose.  After that, the photographer is free to re-license the photos.   Also most photography contracts give the photographer the right to use the images from day one for their promotional purposes.   However,  for big jobs,  contracts are carefully negotiated such that the photographer has certain specific rights and the client as certain specific rights.   If someone; photographer, client, or licensee; wants to use images for something outside the license agreement, then a new agreement must be negotiated for the new use with some additional compensation.   

Hopefully, all of that answers your question.


Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2013, 02:10:13 AM »
I also wanted to point out that as makers of guns and other objects,  you hold the copyright on that object for your lifetime plus 70 years.  Unless your contract with the purchaser specifically transfers the copyright to them or gives them specific copyrights, then anyone wishing to photograph and publish photos of your work needs YOUR permission.    It is unlikely anyone would reject that opportunity for publicity, but you should be asked.    You don't give up your copyrights just because you sell the object to someone else.   I know collectors don't want to hear that, but that is the law!

Offline rjpalmer

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2013, 11:25:00 PM »
I wonder what will happen when Google Glasses find their way into every day use by millions of people?

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2013, 05:14:33 AM »
I suppose things will get gleefully interesting!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 04:36:23 AM »
I guess that you will have to take them off and put them in your pocket before you may enter a KRA show. ;D

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 03:26:39 PM »
I am not sure how enforceable the copyright laws are. The first I knew that some of my rifles on display at a Mini-show had been photographed  was when they showed up in a book of Kentucky rifles. Guess that is what I get for wandering around instead of sitting at my table. Had an aggravated buyer when one with some missing wood sold at the show, then later appeared"as was"  in the book after he had restored it.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 04:01:06 PM »
Quote
I am not sure how enforceable the copyright laws are. The first I knew that some of my rifles on display at a Mini-show had been photographed  was when they showed up in a book of Kentucky rifles.
I have a friend that has done a lot of research on copyright's and he told me that the biggest problem with copyright protection is the cost to enforce it. He said that unless there were big dollars at stake there was no way you could justify the expense required to protect your copyright.
Dennis
 
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Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2013, 05:11:53 PM »
  Didn't Joe Manton go broke trying to protect his patents? Patent and copyright laws mostly contribute to lawyers' income....
                                                 Dan
        
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 05:18:35 PM by Dan'l 1946 »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2013, 06:03:46 PM »
I am not sure how enforceable the copyright laws are. The first I knew that some of my rifles on display at a Mini-show had been photographed  was when they showed up in a book of Kentucky rifles. Guess that is what I get for wandering around instead of sitting at my table. Had an aggravated buyer when one with some missing wood sold at the show, then later appeared"as was"  in the book after he had restored it.

The last sentence is a classic. We would be far better off if every Kentucky etc had been photographed as found and put in a book. But the people that modify old guns to increase their value (as opposed to needed restoration and preservation) don't like this idea much.
People get wadded up over people taking photos for various reasons, some are valid I suppose.  But if they are put on display to the public and nothing is posted about photography then they are in public and I can see no difference in photographing them and photographing a car parked on a public street .

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2013, 09:34:08 PM »
May not be what you meant, but replacing missing wood does not constitute enhancement.

Offline rjpalmer

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2013, 11:32:07 PM »
 I have read all of the interesting responses to my original question of why photos were expressly forbidden at Bushy Run Battlefield. I had hoped to take a photo or two of a few patch boxes and cheek  piece carvings on a few rifles on display. These embellishments are the essence of a flintlock rifle to my eyes. I have only actually seen a few dozen longrifles ever in person and wanted to be able to refer and compare various aspects of these beautiful rifles.

I have since purchased quite a few books and have done internet research. Its pretty amusing that on this site whenever someone has a question about a particular style of rifle, building technique, a  builders's problem or posts about a rifle just completed, everyone asks for pictures! You see, that's why I wanted to take a few photos at Bush Run. A photo explains, puts every thing into perspective, answers asked and unasked questions and is worth thousands of words.
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm    I'm sure glad that there are lots and lots of photos on this site.   

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Photography not allowed
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2013, 02:49:21 PM »
May not be what you meant, but replacing missing wood does not constitute enhancement.

I understand preservation/restoration  etc, but if it was not an enhancement why was the guy upset that someone had pre-repair photos? This smells like enhancement. Next question would be: Did the repair meet the 6 foot/6 inch rule or was it disguised to look like it had never been repaired? If not why would the guy be upset?
This can be a very complex topic and cannot be answered by a statement like "replacing missing wood does not constitute enhancement".  It can be restoration and repair or it can be enhancement and in reality its all three.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine