Rowan County NC bag/horn

[Tim Crosby]

 So if a person was to reproduce it would it be as the original or with the repairs, maybe both ways?

    Tim C.

[Dennis Glazener]

I am surprised that no one commented on the flattened lead strips. I would assume that they were to be used around the flints to hold it tight in the jaws of the cock. I know that some of the military rifles used lead but this is the first evidence that I have seen where it was used in a mountain rifle.
Dennis

[Frank Barker]

Dennis, in the picture of the pouch front with the flap open, I can see a piece of leather sewn to the main strap, is that where the horn strap was sewn on originally.

Tom C, that would be an interesting undertaking in reproducing this pouch with all of the repairs. Maybe Tim A would want to try that.   

Frank B.

[Dennis Glazener]

Yes, it is where the horn strap is sewn on today and it appears to be original.
You can also see it in the first photo at the beginning of this thread.
Dennis

[Artificer]

I am surprised that no one commented on the flattened lead strips. I would assume that they were to be used around the flints to hold it tight in the jaws of the cock. I know that some of the military rifles used lead but this is the first evidence that I have seen where it was used in a mountain rifle.
Dennis

Dennis,

First, thank you for all the photos and answers to the questions about the pouch.  That’s a real treat for us interested in original bag construction!!

Good point on the lead strips to hold the flints.  I wonder if that is a clue the owner had served time in the military or at least active duty with the militia and learned about using lead to wrap flints there with muskets?  Leather could be tanned locally or by oneself, but lead normally had to be purchased or traded for, was it not?  Maybe that’s why we don’t see more original evidence on using lead to wrap flints by civilians?  

I don’t know if this has anything to do with it, but lead wraps would add more weight to the cock and would thus slow down the lock time in a flintlock a little more than leather.  Maybe that is another reason lead wasn’t used more to wrap flints and especially in smaller locks?  
Gus

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis,

First, thank you for all the photos and answers to the questions about the pouch.  That’s a real treat for us interested in original bag construction!!

Good point on the lead strips to hold the flints.  I wonder if that is a clue the owner had served time in the military or at least active duty with the militia and learned about using lead to wrap flints there with muskets?  Leather could be tanned locally or by oneself, but lead normally had to be purchased or traded for, was it not?  Maybe that’s why we don’t see more original evidence on using lead to wrap flints by civilians? 

I don’t know if this has anything to do with it, but lead wraps would add more weight to the cock and would thus slow down the lock time in a flintlock a little more than leather.  Maybe that is another reason lead wasn’t used more to wrap flints and especially in smaller locks? 
Gus

Gus,
Could be the person that put them there may have had a military back ground, would be interesting to know.

I seem to remember some one saying, probably didn't know any more about it than me, that using flattened lead instead of leather for holding filnts was hard on a flintlock. Any chance you have heard that? If so would there be any truth to it? I can see how the additional weight of the lead might cause the cock to strike the flint (and the stop) harder but would the difference in weight be significant enough to matter?
Dennis
 

[Habu]

In at least some cases, yes.  I used to hunt occasionally with an old Ketland fowling piece.  As was my habit, I'd pound a round ball flat and use the thin "sheet" lead to wrap the flint.  Over time, the hammer bent, changing the angle the flint struck the frizzen. 

I later--maybe 12-15 years ago--knew a guy who shot an original pistol for competition.  He wrapped the flint in the same manner, and actually broke the hammer in about the same point: between the lower jaw and the "breast" of the goose. 

I don't recall having a problem with this in Siler locks, but don't think I'd care to try it in a really small/light lock. 

[Artificer]

Dennis,

I could see someone flattening one rifle ball to make a flint wrap in a tough or emergency case, but two lead wraps sort of suggests the original owner was using them commonly.

Virtually all my experience with lead wrapped flints has been with repro military muskets in reenacting and some folks used them on original flintlock muskets on the US International Muzzleloading Team.  Reenactors often fire their “firelocks” MANY more times each season than even many/most dedicated target shooters.  It is not uncommon to fire 60 to 80 blanks in a reenactment, though that is far more than was ever shot in most original battles.  It just makes a better “show” for the crowd.

The lower quality (than original) repro locks should have shown many signs of damage with lead wraps, had that been a significant problem.  Now I’m not saying some cocks did not crack or warp, but it did not seem to be a significant problem and I’m not sure it can be directly related to using flint wraps as opposed to lower lock part quality. 

However, I personally never used lead flint wraps in either my vintage 1976 Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine that I used to compete in Northwest Trade Gun Matches and reenact, nor my 1997 full size Pedersoli Brown Bess Musket I reenacted with.  I got better sparking and at least I believe I got longer flint life without reknapping by using leather wraps. 

Now it could also be using different thicknesses of leather allowed me to better adjust the strike of the flint on the steel.  I also know that some reenactors used flints that are really too big for their locks.  Don’t know how many times some reenactors used original French flints that were oversize for their locks and I had to explain that and get them to use flints suitable in size for their locks.  Usually when members of my reenacting unit gave me their muskets to work on, I would find the correct size flint and leather and their locks sparked correctly and for longer periods.  In some cases and with guys who had reenacted for years, they told me their locks had never sparked and worked so well and for so long.  We also have to keep in mind that a good number of Reenactors with Flint Muskets rarely, if ever fired a live round with their muskets, so they didn’t know as much about working their locks.

The US Military issued lead wraps or flattened musket balls for flint wraps all through the flintlock musket era from the Revolution to the last Flintlock Musket Model 1840.  Had lead flint wraps been really damaging, one would think they would have changed that?  MAYBE it was the size of the cocks in those locks that could just take more stress without serious damage? 

However, as Habu noted above, I think the added weight of the lead wraps could/would cause MUCH more noticeable stress and damage on smaller cocks especially those that have thinner metal “between the lower jaw and the "breast" of the goose” as Habu noted.   I am not an mechanical engineer, though, and don’t know how to calculate the increased force of the cock and flint hitting the steel with a lead wrap vs a flint wrap. 

Side note to Habu,

Please don’t take this as anything personal, but I cringe when I see your Avatar or type it out.  One morning in 1972 around 0600 just when there was some light and I was on my way to opening my Armory on Okinawa, I got chased by a real Habu for quite a distance.  Even though he was in a shadow, Thank God there was enough light to see him else I may have walked too close to him.  I set a personal speed record running from him that morning.  I STILL shudder when I think back on it.
Gus

[Elnathan]

Dennis,



 

The US Military issued lead wraps or flattened musket balls for flint wraps all through the flintlock musket era from the Revolution to the last Flintlock Musket Model 1840.  Had lead flint wraps been really damaging, one would think they would have changed that?  MAYBE it was the size of the cocks in those locks that could just take more stress without serious damage? 

However, as Habu noted above, I think the added weight of the lead wraps could/would cause MUCH more noticeable stress and damage on smaller cocks especially those that have thinner metal “between the lower jaw and the "breast" of the goose” as Habu noted.   I am not an mechanical engineer, though, and don’t know how to calculate the increased force of the cock and flint hitting the steel with a lead wrap vs a flint wrap. 

US muskets, from the widespread use of the French 1766 pattern on through all domestically made muskets, had double-neck cocks. I imagine that made a considerable difference.

Using a lead wrap is one of the things that will invalidate the warranty on a Chamber's lock. IIRC, Jim says that lead transfers all the force of the flint striking the steel directly to the cock, whereas leather has enough give to dampen the shock somewhat.

[Levy]

Dennis,  We have no way of knowing what has been in and out of the bag over time.  Maybe the owner had a small bullet mold in there and could run a few extra bullets if he had to.  Maybe he tied a string onto it and used it for a fishing weight. 

James Levy

[Artificer]

US muskets, from the widespread use of the French 1766 pattern on through all domestically made muskets, had double-neck cocks. I imagine that made a considerable difference.

Using a lead wrap is one of the things that will invalidate the warranty on a Chamber's lock. IIRC, Jim says that lead transfers all the force of the flint striking the steel directly to the cock, whereas leather has enough give to dampen the shock somewhat.

Elnathan,

You are correct all US made Flint Muskets were copies of French Designs and had double necked cocks.  I should have also mentioned that British Land Pattern Muskets from at least the Pattern 1730 (and MAYBE earlier) to beyond the War of 1812 had single necked cocks, though they eventually went to double necked cocks as well. 

MOST of the repro muskets I’ve used in competition, reenacting or by those around me have been British pattern Muskets, though at one time I owned a Charleville.   The lower quality of those lock parts (than originals) did not seem to cause cracking or warping of cocks. Maybe it was because there was more metal in the necks of those locks than on civilian locks.  MAYBE that’s part of the reason the British Ordnance system held the service life of a Musket was between as little as 8 years in use to 10 to 12 years, or maybe the stress of combat caused that to be the average.  Never been able to find that out for sure.  Oh, I don’t have much experience with the muskets made in India that are so frequent nowadays. 

Good info on the note about invalidating a warranty on Jim Chambers locks by using lead wraps.

One thing I was surprised about was the British International Muzzleloading Committee Team Members who always were looking to buy original US Pattern 1822 through M1840 Muskets to use in the competition requiring original muskets. (Many folks call them M1816’s of various types, but purists contend that is not the correct description.  Not trying to start that all over again.  Grin.)  They agreed with US Team Members that the .69 cal muskets were more accurate than the .75 caliber Bess’s on original guns.  They also told me they preferred a Musket made by an English speaking country.  Grin.

I was the only Armourer at the two World Championships at Wedgnock, UK in 96 and 98 and wound up working other National Teams’ guns as needed.  The ONLY repair I had to do on an original flint musket was on one US Team Member who was using an original, unaltered M1840 Springfield and the original top jaw screw broke in half in 96.  Though I carried both some few original and some repro “M1822” parts, I only had one repro top jaw screw and the threads were different, of course.  I told my team member I really did not feel good about tapping out the original threads, but it was the only way to fix it.  He agreed more readily than I might have.  Good thing as he won Gold in different competitions with that musket both years and with that repro top jaw screw.
Gus

[Artificer]

Dennis,

Did the pouch come with a gun and if so, did the cock have a double neck?  Of course there probably is no way of finding out if the pouch was made to be used with the gun it came with, if it did.

Gus

[Dennis Glazener]

Gus,
Yes the bag was with a rifle and it does have a double throated cock. The rifle will be in an upcoming book on NC Mountain rifles that is close going to print so I don't feel right about posted photos right now.
Dennis

[Artificer]

Gus,
Yes the bag was with a rifle and it does have a double throated cock. The rifle will be in an upcoming book on NC Mountain rifles that is close going to print so I don't feel right about posted photos right now.
Dennis

With a double throated cock, it makes it more likely those are flint wraps instead of fishing weights or something else, then.  I am not extremely familiar with NC Mountain Rifles.  Is a double throated cock sort of unusual for them? 
Gus

[Dennis Glazener]

Is a double throated cock sort of unusual for them? 

Not really, I have seen quite a few original southern Mountain rifles with double throated cocks.
Dennis

[G-Man]

Dennis that is an extraordinary bag and horn set - thanks for posting the photos.

Those style locks were really common on late flint southern mountain rifles.  There is a bit of a mistaken impression out there - based on what is printed in some of the parts suppliers catalogs that have been published over the years - that southern mountain rifles often used "high quality English locks" -but these were usually (not always) a more basic lock mass produced for export trade - they had the same general plate and cock shapes but there is a big difference on the features, fit and finish on the internals from the ones you see on high-end English guns at the time.  Similar on the outside, not on the inside.

You do see some extremely high quality locks in this style on southern guns - Jacob Young's guns for example - but he was extraordinary.

Guy