pine box

[David R. Pennington]

I decided to do some smaller projects before I started another rifle. I had some nice pine boards from an old packing crate I couldn't put in the kindling pile. I knocked together another pine box. Now I need to forge the hardware and put a finish on the box. I was hoping someone would have some suggestions for a good historically correct finish. All hand work, from sawing out the boards with rip and crosscut hand saws and planning boards with jack and jointer planes.
Dovetails hand cut, and moldings made with antique molding plane. Moldings pinned on with heart pine pegs. I even raised a panel for the bottom board with antique hand planes. So with all that hand work I don't want to put polyurethane on it. I thought about milk paint but not sure I want to obscure the wood grain. Any ideas? 

[PPatch]

Very nice all around craftsmanship David, I like it. Pine is a tricky one to finish once poly is ruled out (justifiably). In my experience a stain often comes out looking muddy on pine, I have gotten away from them on pine for that reason. When i was first looking at it I thought milk paint also, and I still think it, something red or one of those middle greens. Yes, the grain will be covered but the construction details will not, those will still be quite obvious. My two dong worth.

dp

[Kermit]

I've used powdered milk paint a lot on softwood stuff--pine, doug fir, larch...sometimes on maple. I don't think of milk paint as hiding the grain. It does let grain show, but not like that new-fangled stain stuff. I like to use two or more colors and layer them, then with a LIGHT touch, sand/buff/ding corners, edges, and wear areas to expose the colors in the lower layers. I apply a tung oil type finish over the paint to give it some luster. Spend some time with some scraps and milk paint layers to see what you can do.

I keep a few colors on hand, red, blue, green, white (for adding to lighten colors), gold, and black. Look for the older tones in these colors. They shouldn't be saturated dark colors. It really is fun to work with. Dries fast and you can mix very small amounts so you don't have old opened cans of paint going expensively funky.

Nice little box. Isn't handtool work rewarding?

[David R. Pennington]

Thanks guys. Kermit, when you layer, do you typically use darker colors under or over? Where do you get your milk paint? I've never used it. Thinking about experimenting with it. I tried some of my homemade aqua fortis on some pine scraps and it looked awful. After it dried I sanded it back some, oiled with some linseed oil and heated it and it looked pretty good, a little dark though. 

[David R. Pennington]

Oh, yes and about the hand tools. I get a lot of enjoyment out of collecting, restoring and using them. It's a continuous learning process. 

[Kermit]

Here's one:

http://www.milkpaint.com/

And another:

http://www.realmilkpaint.com/products.html

I've used both and they are both good. I've mixed as little as a couple of tablespoons at a time. It does NOT keep once mixed. If you mess around with adding more water, you can get a wash that will reveal more of the grain pattern. I have dabs of powder in some colors that has been sitting on a shelf in the original paper bag for at least a decade and it's still fine.

I don't think there's reason to be concerned about light-dark in the layering. I did a blanket chest in pine for my wife, and layered it green-red-black and then oil. I rubbed it back just enough to put a decade or so of honest wear on it. I'm not into making things look like they sat in a cellar for a couple of centuries getting abused. Just a leg up on time.

There is good info on their sites about how to use the stuff. Look particularly at the early colors. I find those most appealing.

The relative hardness/softness of the early and late wood in softwoods makes it look like a zebra when it's stained. You can mess with things like sealing with a coat of shellac before staining, but I still don't care for most of the results. I'm getting into making "boarded" furniture entirely with hand tools. After all the years of infernal racket of a mechanized wood shop, I'm enjoying the experience of hand skills and tools. The only machines I have left are a wood lathe and a bandsaw, and I'm starting to sometimes give them the hairy eyeball. But they're the most useful of machines, and probably aren't going anywhere soon,

[David R. Pennington]

Thanks again, I'll check out the sources. I occasionally use my old table saw and I have an old bench top wood lathe that gets used rarely. I guess drill press is one I wouldn't want to give up for accurate drilling. My shop is so small I don't have room for power tools. My business has taken over the garage and I usually have to find the table saw and drill press before I can use them so usually I don't. I like to see the curls of shavings piling up around me. I bought a power planer from the box store a while back but it is so noisy and slow and creates mountains of dust. I've found it better in most cases to cut my boards to size for my project, and hand plane them.

[Majorjoel]

David, from all of your very fine hard work, I can only tell you that your pine box cries out for some good ole germanic fraktur  art. If it was at all possible, after a coat or two of milk paint, I'd doll it up with examples like some shown here: http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=Aih3NYuVFN1X9EPJu55EP8SbvZx4?fr=yfp-t-900-1-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=german%20fraktur%20art   

[Tim Crosby]

 Nice work, the Dove Tails look perfect, in size and spacing. I second Kermit's suggestion on the sanded back Milk Paint. Once sanded with some bare wood showing I usually then wipe on some stain to darken up the bare wood or you can coat the whole thing with some dark Brown paste wax, let it dry and buff it with a brush and/or a cloth.
 Depending on how much aging you want you could also use contrasting paint, then sand leaving three different colors.
 Would like to see it when finished.

   Tim C.   

[David R. Pennington]

Thanks again for the kind encouragement. I keep thinking I need a hand forged lock. I've never made a lock yet. Hinges and handles I can do. I'll have to come up with a good lock design. Any one done that? 

[Mark Elliott]

That is a super nice box!  I use either milk paint or artist quality oil paint on pine.    I will also put oil over top milk paint to darken it up and make it a little more durable.    I also like faux finishes with a bright base paint and a dark glaze over top.  You must use oil paints for the faux finishes to give you working time.  You apply the glaze with all sorts of materials to get different patterns.   

[PPatch]

David, from all of your very fine hard work, I can only tell you that your pine box cries out for some good ole germanic fraktur  art. If it was at all possible, after a coat or two of milk paint, I'd doll it up with examples like some shown here: http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=Aih3NYuVFN1X9EPJu55EP8SbvZx4?fr=yfp-t-900-1-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=german%20fraktur%20art   

geez... what a great idea! Endless possibilities...

dp

[smart dog]

Hi Dave,
Nice dovetails that look period correct.  I've often seen handmade boxes on which the dovetails are so slightly flared they look like finger joints at first glance.

dave

[Kermit]

The angle of "flare" is different depending on hardwood or softwood. And David's shown here on pine are very good. I think it's a good deal tougher to get nice dovetails in softwood. Some hardwoods are a little cranky too. I worked with one fellow who grabbed some scrap and hand cut one dovetail every day if none were part of the day's work. His were so nice we usually let him do them when some client wanted drawers hand dovetailed. I took Tage Frid's lead and do a combination of handtools and bandsaw.

[smart dog]

Hi Kermit,
Thanks for the information.  It makes a lot of sense that the flare would depend on the wood.  All of the antique dovetailed boxes I've seen with subtle dovetails were made of oak or mahogany.

Thanks again,

dave

[Kermit]

"Conventional" wisdom is that dovetails are 1:6 in softwood and 1:8 in hardwood. Ratios there, not angle measurements.    In practice, I use a tiny sliding t-bevel to set angles where they look best to my eye. Real fun comes laying out and cutting pins and tails for sea chests with both ends and sides set at angles, not simple 90 degree boxes.

Also, the remark about some fine dovetails looking almost like finger joints usually comes from someone stuck with 1:8 hardwood dovetails in small work using thinner stock. With tiny tails in thin stuff, the angle almost vanishes to the eye. The 1:6 and 1:8 ratios are pretty much okay for stock at least 1/2" thick, but you might find 1:8 in 1/4" hardwoods more pleasing, and as much as 1:10 better in thin softwoods.

If you want to have things look right to the eye, you may find tossing the "rules" and experimenting a bit results in a better look.

[David R. Pennington]

I didn't measure any thing on this one with a ruler. I just let the stock I had dictate the dimensions and did like Kermit said and set my T-bevel to what looked right.  I still have the first little box I made with dovetails. (It's in a cabinet somewhere with some nails in it. Boy is it ugly.) Now I've got in my head I need a little hand forged box lock and key. What about hardware. Any suggestions? I'm thinking long tapered strap hinges with "bean" ends. Maybe a pair of handles with pineapple twist and escutcheons?  Boy this quick little project might eat up more time than I thought. Thanks again guys for the encouragement.

[Artificer]

David,

NICE Box, LOVE the Dovetails. 

Funny thing is I’ve been researching offset strap hinges lately for eventual use in my Artificer’s Tool Chest.   I’m NO expert but I’ve read the Bean ends were very or most common, though there were different patterns done in different parts of the country.  However, it seems a bit difficult to find offset strap hinges with bean edges.  Maybe someone has a source for them as all I’ve found were sort of triangular or fish tail on the ends.

Personally, I plan on “cheating” a bit and just contacting Peter Ross (who was the head blacksmith at Colonial Williamsburg for years)  and giving him the dimensions of the box and just tell him to make them correct for the mid 18th century for Virginia.

http://peterrossblacksmith.com/

Gus

[Artificer]

David,

While your box is certainly nice enough for offset strap hinges, if that is more than you want to pay, you might consider snipe hinges as they would certainly be authentic.

For those who don’t know what I mean by snipe hinges, here is a link showing how they are installed.  You can find them cheaper than Horton sells them other places (or make them yourself), but I don’t have a handy link.

http://www.horton-brasses.com/resources/installation/snipehinges

Gus

[smart dog]

Hi Gus,
Thanks a lot for the links and information!  I have stored them away.

dave

[David R. Pennington]

I'll forge my hinges so finding them won't be a problem, just deciding on the style and finding time to get the forge fired up is the only concern. I've been looking at old locks trying to figure out how to make one. I think I've decided on a bear claw catch with a stud that can be released from the outside and a keyed bolt that can be locked. 

[David R. Pennington]

Here was my first attempt at forging strap hinges.

[Kermit]

If you order forged offset strap hinges, be prepared to pay well into 3 figures for a pair. Snipe hinges are easily made, or you can just interlock two cotter pins. Be sure to aneal them, cuz most will break if you try to open them that much. File or grind the prongs to points for clenching. They'll need to be soft for that. You could also make them of brass or even copper wire, I suppose.

BTW, offset strap hinges were made to be attached inside the box for security. So a lock would be a necessary partner. Hinges attached outside are easy to pry loose, so a latch is the most you'd need.

[Artificer]

DavidR,

NICE hinges!  I like the way you wrapped them around the skirt band at the bottom of the chest.

Smart Dog,

You are most welcome.  I wish I had known about snipe hinges earlier myself for some “camp and storage boxes” we used in the 70’s.  We always wound up using leather hinges and they are correct, but not as neat as snipe hinges. 

Kermit is absolutely correct about filing points on the ends and they have to be made of soft iron (or some other soft metal) and not steel that will crack and break as you spread and bend the ends to clinch them in the wood.   Also, you HAVE to drill holes for them through the wood before you spread the ends and clinch them.  I’ve seen a couple people ruin blacksmith made snipe hinges because they did not realize that.  You also need to be a little careful aligning the eyes so the hinges work smoothly and keep that in mind as you clinch the ends. 

I’ve seen original snipe hinges on original 18th century six board chests and the chests and lids were larger than what most of us would use for a camp box.  I think one of them is at the Mary Washington House in Fredericksburg, VA, if I remember correctly.

Gus

[David R. Pennington]

With the nails clinched on the inside they would be difficult to pry loose. The lid would probably split before you got all the clinched nails pried loose. It is a wood box so locked or not if you wanted it open a hatchet would work.