Author Topic: Bizzare, or merely interesting?  (Read 9247 times)

Offline Kermit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« on: September 29, 2013, 06:11:57 PM »
Discussion of accuracy as a function of octagonal vs. round barrels...

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1380429931
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Paddlefoot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1844
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2013, 02:45:12 AM »
I find anything that involves accuracy interesting.  I believe it was Col. Whelen who said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."  Does it really apply to what we are building? I doubt it. I don't see how a long thin, swamped barrel with dovetailed tabs fastened relatively securely into a wood stock that shrinks and swells with the weather is going to be much above accurate enough for the purpose. Of course part of the fun for us is that the folks who shoot modern sporting arms have no idea how accurate our long guns really are. If you really want to talk precision muzzleloader accuracy you need to sample a Brockway, Read or something similar. Very impressive.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 12:05:43 AM »
Who you calling bizzare? Anybody we know ?

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 03:58:52 AM »
Actually, if you really want to experience muzzleloader accuracy, all you need do is  research
history, and what was produced in the 1800's.  To achieve real long range accuracy, you need a bullet, and the 1000 yd matches were being shot with muzzleloaders before the advent of breachloading rifles.  How about mid-range.....I had a .38 cal that put 10 rounds into 1 and 11/16th inches at 200 yds. With peep sights.  Real accurate muzzleloaders are not a modern invention.  :)

Offline Kermit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 06:23:20 AM »
I've got a chunk gun with an octagonal barrel and a RB bench gun with a round barrel. Both shoot better than I do. I'm not the guy to do any testing. I'm also not the guy who cares. :-X
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Paddlefoot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1844
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2013, 11:44:52 AM »
Exactly what I was saying Bob. There was a tremendous amount known about precision shooting long before the advent of breech loading and smokeless powder, it just didn't involve full stock roundball guns.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9680
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2013, 02:46:30 PM »
I have owned a few of these 1000 yard specials in years past and they lacked
little in looks or performance. Most of the developments on these came out of
England and they had the shops and craftsmen that were very capable of making
such rifles. Thanks to the late Bill Roberts and others still living,these rifles are
enjoying a limited come back and I hope they keep on going as others develop
interest in muzzle loaders that will REALLY reach out and touch something.

Bob Roller

Offline Paddlefoot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1844
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 12:11:48 PM »
It might not be strictly in line with our forum but a friend on mines husband just returned from South Africa where he finished 7th in the World Black Powder Cartridge Rifle competition. Apparently he has won the thing a time or two. The Gullos are the owners of Buffalo Arms and do carry black powder as well as stuff for cowboy action shooters and some muzzle loader stuff. Their focus is on long range BPCR products.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 03:07:29 PM »
Good for Dave !   He stayed with us years ago, when we were competing in the 1000 yd matches in Ottawa.   I was shooting a Sharps 45-100 back then, but have since switched to a .45 cal muzzleloader.

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2013, 04:59:11 PM »
At the first Creed's Moor shoot didn't the Irish team have John Rigby "built" muzzleloaders and barely lost to the Americans who were all shooting breechloaders? I think it came down to the last shot didn't it?
I would also like to know who built the barrels and locks for those rifles the Irish team was using, by Rigby himself or some other English, Irish or Scottish maker. 
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 05:03:36 PM by crawdad »

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15784
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2013, 05:53:13 PM »
The Rigby muzzleloaders were indeed supreme in the 1870's for 1,000yard shooting - interesting they shot without wiping - very interesting indeed. (according to Ned Robert's book)

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Paddlefoot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1844
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2013, 06:14:09 PM »
I think some of the American team were also loading their Sharps rifles as muzzle loaders for the bullet but charging with the brass case from the breech. That sounds questionable but I read an article the other day which described Pope doing this right into the 1900s with duplex black and smokeless loads
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19471
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2013, 08:45:09 PM »
Guys, please remember that this forum is dedicated to traditional round ball muzzleloading rifles/guns/accoutrements. I don't want to be hard nosed about it but things keep drifting to other type rifles/guns. I have nothing against those type of guns but I want to keep this board in line with its Mission Statement which can be read here:

http://americanlongrifles.org/?action=recent
Thanks for your cooperation.
Dennis

"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9680
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2013, 09:11:32 PM »
There was a man shooting a rolling block that said it shot better as a muzzle loader.
Here's how you do it.Cut a dowel that is the length of the brass case being used and
insert it into the breech,best of all is a hard wood dummy cartridge case complete with
the rim.With the wooden case or dowel in place and the breech closed,insert the bullet,
either grease grooved or paper patched into the muzzle and push it down with the rod
until it touches the dowel/case and then remove the dowel and replace it with a case full
powder,take aim and fire.I have done this and it works fine.Harry Pope did this also but
with 32-33 and 38 caliber rifles usually equipped with a false muzzle.
Long bullets are usually sized to about .0005 (1/2 of 1/1000th of an inch)over land diameter
and rely on being upset by the ignition of the powder which can be over 100 grains.

    Here is the trick about wiping.The rules in some matches said NO wiping between shots
and here's how to get around that.Load the powder and then place the bullet in the muzzle
and THEN place a moist or lightly greased patch over the muzzle and push the bullet and
patch down.Withdrawing the rod will bring the patch back and from a technical stand point,
you are loading,not cleaning.This is called the John Rigby method of loading the long range
rifle.l have seen this done more than once.

    The barrels were probably made by Rigby and the locks were fine Brazier,Stanton or Evans
with 4 screw bridles,fly and a very quick mainspring.There were a large number of fine "lock filers"
working in that period and few were substandard.I have 2 orders from one man for 2 of these
4 screw types with the fishtail bridle for replicating Alex Henry rifles.
There were a large number of "lock filers" working in Wolverhampton according to info I may
still have.I'll put it on the forum if I can find it.

Bob Roller

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19471
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2013, 11:39:09 PM »
Bob,
Please read my last post.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Vomitus

  • Guest
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2013, 08:29:31 AM »
   Hey Den,
    Please don't lock this. Can we move this to the over the fence place? I find this fascinating. I like old guys,they know stuff.

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19471
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2013, 04:33:25 PM »
I won't lock it but bullet/cartridge guns don't fit the venue for ALR, not even in OTBF. As I said, I have nothing against them, even have a slight interest in them but not here on this forum. If anyone of you is interested in creating a forum for this type of discussion I suggest that you start a forum for that type of discussion, there are plenty of websites that allow you to set-up free discussion forums. I will be glad to list the sites where this can be done, I will even volunteer to set it up for you if anyone wants to run it. Will even advertise it here on ALR so you can get interested ALR members to join in on the discussion. But it will be completely separate from ALR. If anyone is interested in taking on this project let me know and I will work with you on getting it going.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5300
  • Tennessee
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2013, 05:09:56 PM »
Great generous offer there Dennis.

But surely we can all just agree to use an established forum for matters like this-where the conversation naturally flows into the world of breechloaders. 

Maybe at this point we post suggestions.  I'm "membered" at many other gun sites.  "Castboolits" might be one option. I see 3 different BP sections there. 

I'm open to the suggestions of others.

Hold to the Wind

Offline Kermit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2013, 08:07:36 AM »
I thought maybe some might be interested in accuracy as a function of barrel cross section shape. In muzzleloaders.  :-\
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline alyce-james

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2013, 05:00:51 PM »
Good morning Dennis; Sir, just wanted to let you know there are people on this site that support your position completely. I guess some members see but don't see what they read. Thanks for your work on this site. Jim Wilkison. Texas.
"Candy is Dandy but Liquor is Quicker". by Poet Ogden Nash 1931.

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19471
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2013, 06:11:27 PM »
I thought maybe some might be interested in accuracy as a function of barrel cross section shape. In muzzleloaders.  :-\

Kermit,
Here is the problem from my point of view, just about every member here has different tastes in the ML world. Some like this and don't like that. Some can tolerate this and can't tolerate that. In order to keep the site on course for what it was created for, a set of rules were put together, we are going by them as close as we can within the realm of decent behavior. I am sure "some might be interested" in discussion of "in-lines" but I suspect most would get very upset to have that come to pass. So we will continue to go by the Mission Statement and rules as posted.
Dennis
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 06:22:37 PM by Dennis Glazener »
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline C Wallingford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Northern Kentucky
    • CW Knives
Re: Bizzare, or merely interesting?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2013, 06:25:41 PM »
Good morning Dennis; Sir, just wanted to let you know there are people on this site that support your position completely. I guess some members see but don't see what they read. Thanks for your work on this site. Jim Wilkison. Texas.

I am one of the members that support the mission statement of the ALR and appreciate the work that Dennis and the moderators put forth to keep it as it is intended.
Thanks for the hard work.