Lock?

[Avlrc]

 When did this lock plate first come into use? Are they as early as more popular  rounded percussion lock plates?, just a different shape? Or  are they later?

[Hungry Horse]

 There are a couple of original Hawken Rifles with this plate design.

                Hungry Horse

[Dphariss]

One of the Hawken rifles is dated to 1836.



Dan

[JV Puleo]

Its a Birmingham lock... I've no strong feeling about the shape but my observations lately suggest that the flat hammer is fairly early. I know I can place them before 1830 and I suspect they were "old fashioned" by 1835.

[Avlrc]

Thanks for the info. I was guessing 1835-40.  Not a very pleasing looking lock for sure.

[JV Puleo]

I'd have placed it 1825-30, actually before the "conventional" percussion lock was fully developed. At this point they were still experimenting with what worked best. It may also be that it is purposeful attempt to make a lock that was obviously different from a flint lock and thus "new". The "latest & greatest" had as much appeal to the general public then as it does now... but us old gun guys are often oblivious to it.

[Avlrc]

Thanks, that is a good perspective. Makes sense to me. They are three  rifles with similar locks made here in Hampshire County. I know the maker of one was active from 1810-35. One from 1820-1880, the other maker we have not determined. Appreciate the info.

[Steve Collward]

Attached is a photo of a similar lock on a rifle by gun maker S.W. Hill, Johnstown, N.Y.  Samuel W. Hill was active in the 1820's through the 1840's. 

[Dphariss]

Its a Birmingham lock... I've no strong feeling about the shape but my observations lately suggest that the flat hammer is fairly early. I know I can place them before 1830 and I suspect they were "old fashioned" by 1835.

Apparently Jake and Sam did not. The Silver Mounted Hawken pictured above is probably the most expensive Hawken made and its firm dated 1836 made for a "high profile" citizen.
We have to remember that the percussion system we see as standard today took time to develop, years in fact.  As a result a rifle we see with the percussion hammer designed for copper caps surely dates from 1825 or so. The system did not spring fully formed at the time that the detonating compounds were found to be useful for firearms ignition. So when we see a rifle with a fully formed "modern" percussion system its likely post 1825 in America especially.
Also, according to George in "English Guns and Rifles" the percussion swept the Flintlock away in shotguns almost immediately but flintlocks hung on longer in rifles. I suspect that variations in the early percussion caps may have had an effect on rifle accuracy until they got a little more consistent.  This supposition but its pretty good supposition. The percussion system did not EVER fully replace the flintlock and as late as 1840 people were still being cautioned against taking a percussion gun west. So even at the time the Silver Mounted Hawken the percussion system was still considered by many to be experimental and unreliable.

Dan

[JV Puleo]

I was primarily referring to the shape of the hammer, not the lock plate when I guessed a date. With its more fully developed hammer, I'd have guessed the Hawken to have been at the very end of the period so the 1836 date fits perfectly and I'm even gratified to know I'd guessed so closely... but its still always a guess unless you have other corroborating data.

I have a friend who is doing some work on the early percussion period. Based on newspaper advertisements for percussion caps, it appears that we can pinpoint just when they became widely available. We haven't carried it west because that isn't the main interest but it would seem likely that they arrived in quantity in St. Louis a year or maybe two after Boston, in which case they were firmly in place by the mid -'30s and perhaps by 1830. But, St Louis was at the end of the conventional "supply trail"... and I can see there being a question if you were going further west.

There are always going to be people who continue with what they are comfortable with... were I to want to shoot a modern rifle, I'd probably use my WWI SMLE (that I've had for 40 years)... I wouldn't cross the room to look at a pile of free "black rifles" because I'm simply not interested in them but no one would even remotely suggest I'm "up to date" in relation to modern shooters. In the case of flintlocks, they'd been in use for 150 years when percussion systems appeared and no one was alive that remembered an earlier system.

[PPatch]

Quote: "I wouldn't cross the room to look at a pile of free "black rifles"

Yep, zero interest here also.

dp

[Bob Roller]

Black rifles hold as much interest for me as a dead battery or a flat tire.A fine English long range
muzzle loader or an 1877 Sharps,those are another story.

Bob Roller

[Steve Collward]

  To add just a bit more regarding time frames of flint to percussion conversion, I have an advertisement that N.Y. gun maker Stillman Jackson, Palmyra, N.Y. ran August 15, 1829 in which he is opening his business. 
  In part, he states that he "... will keep on hand Percussion and Flint Rifles, Muskets, and Fowling-Pieces..." and offers "... Rifle Locks altered from Flint to Percussion..."
  An add Jackson runs four years later, Jan. 22, 1833, he continues to offer flintlocks "altered" to percussion.
  Three years later, November 18 1836, Mr. Jackson's advertisement no longer specifically mentions altering flint to percussion.  He does offer what he refers to as "side percussion locks" (mule ear) and "cap percussion locks ... from one of the most celebrated establishments in England".   
  Just wish he mentioned the name of this "celebrated establishment". 

[Chuck Burrows]

These type locks are shotgun locks of the 1820-1840 era - thus IMO the odd shape hammer and note no bolster and on one Hawken, the so-called Peterson Hawken the lock and guard are both taken from a period shotgun
Here's a link to that Hawken courtesy the BBHC
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/CFM_ObjectPage.cfm?museum=CFM&VarObjectKey=22284

For figures on the number of caps in St Louis from the 1830 to 1840's see the chapter in "The Hawken Rifle: It's place in History" that includes a plethora of period adverts....

[mr. no gold]

Whisker shows some Bedford County rifles in his first book that were made in that county that have this type of lock. One shown has a peculiar variation on this shape. These are pieces likely made in the 1830s and 40s which indicates a reasonably early date.
I tend to agree with JV that these are an early type of percussion lock. The San Diego County Historical Society once had a pair of Kentucky pistols made by Creamer which had been owned by Jedidiah Smith and which were conficated by the alcalde when Smith came into San Diego in 1828. I was fortunate enough to be able to see one of the guns and it had the same type of lock; it had to have been made prior to 1828 by some years. Creamer placed the tube on the upper quarter flat of the barrel and the hammer was formed to reach over to that position, much like the Belgian conversion used later. It is my understanding that the whereabouts of these guns is not known today. Huge loss!
Dick