Questions on shooting pouch/bag flap construction

[Artificer]

I don’t know if there is a definitive answer to this query, but maybe I have missed something over the years. 

What I’m referring to is the use of the flap on the pouch being sewn on vs using a continuous piece of leather for the back of the pouch and running around to make the flap.  My question is if there is a good or special reason to sew the flap on separately? 

I note that military cartridge boxes normally had a one piece flap or a flap nailed to the back of a wood cartridge block that folded down over the block or pouch from the 18th century and for as long as Muzzleloading Muskets were used.  I always heard that was to better keep rain out of the block or pouch.

Has it got something to do with keeping the flap leather to lay flatter and thus enclose the pouch better?

Sewing the flap on separately would allow one to construct a pouch out of smaller pieces of leather than having the back and flap of the same piece?  Is that the reason?

If one was making a shooting bag for oneself and especially if one was not trained in leatherwork, making a bag out of an L shaped piece of leather and just folding the bottom leg of the “L” over and stitching it to the side and bottom is all that is required to form a pouch.  I’ve seen a few originals like that and they do not seem to have been made by a trained leather worker.  It takes a lot more effort, especially for someone not trained or experienced in leather working to sew on a separate flap. 

What are your thoughts or experience with sewn front flaps?
Gus

[Jerry V Lape]

I don't know if this helps you because I am certainly not an authority on leather work.  I made my pouch with a sewn on flap because I wanted the top line of the bag to be semi circular to sort of hug the side of the body so it wouldn't swing as much while hunting.  It was the easiest way I could see to shape the leather for that.  Also, it seems a fold over flap would tend to have some arch to the top and not close on the bag as snugly as the sewn on flap which was stitched in the hanging position so gravity will naturally close it.  (The inside surface of the back and inside surface of the flap were sewn together facing each other with a leather binding over the top of the seam as further rain protection. )   

[Chuck Burrows]

One reason - Sewing the flap on aids in keeping the flap closed unlike the roll over style made in one piece.

[Artificer]

Thanks Jerry and Chuck,

Over the years, I have made more repro’s of Rev War and War of 1812 American and British Cartridge Pouches than I’ve made “Civilian” Shooting Pouches.   I’ve only made about 8 civilian pouches and always used a roll over flap with an enclosure like a pewter or antler button or an original or repro of what was the correct closure on Military Pouches.  So I really have no experience using a pouch with a flap that does not have some kind of closure on it.  That’s why I asked.

Were stitched on flaps known or commonly used in this country during 1740 through 1780?

Was it more common for “civilian” shooting pouches not to have some kind of enclosure on them when the flaps were stitched on?

Thanks for any further information.
Gus

[Nordnecker]

I realize this is an old post. I've been wondering about the same question. Why the separate pieces for the hinge/ flap? I thought I remembered James Rogers saying he preferred a one piece flap. I'd sure like to hear more comments about this.
 

[Marcruger]

This is my opinion only.  There are several reasons I may choose to go with an "added" flap versus one piece of leather:

1)  Yes, a one piece folded bag takes a bigger piece of leather, but this is not my primary aim. 

2)  I sometimes like to use a thicker piece of leather for the flap so I can scribe a design in it.  A thicker piece of leather would make an unyielding hinge. 

3)  I like to line the flap so that it has more body, is more finished looking, and/or has more weight to hold itself down with no fastener.  I can also hide a piece of flattened lead in the bottom of the flap to keep it down. 

4)  The line of stitching from the hinge to the flap give more body to the top of the flap and holds it straighter. 

5)  The line of stitching for the flap to hinge gives a subtle bit of decoration there, and the bottom edge of the hinge can be pinked or scalloped to give decoration.

6)  A big reason is that I make my bag body and stitch it up first, then judge how wide I want my flap and how long.  It is one of the last elements I do.  Especially with inside-out bags, as they all turn slightly different and end up different widths.  I leave the hinge a little long for the same reason, and trim it back to suit. 

I hope this explains my thinking a little.  God Bless,   Marc 

[Brokennock]

I like to sew my flap on flat, with the inside surface of the flap against the inside surface of the back panel, and a strip of trim leather folded over the top exposed edges for two reasons. First being that the flap stays closed better without a button I need to fumble with to close when done loading. Second, and along the same lines, us that when closed, the flap lays a lot tighter to the bag at the ends, thus helping keep weather out. Especially with heavier leather, when the flap comes over the top from the back, that fold leaves an opening I don't care for.
I have stitched down folded over flap to fix this issue.

[thecapgunkid]

This is a thoughtful question that probably has no answer.  It's one of those..."sazeech hiz own"...issues.
This guy, with sewn flap, is my oldest and closest bag.



It has gone everywhere but was principally a match bag.  I stitched the flap exclusively for easy access, and pounded a .69 caliber round ball flat that I stitched in between the lining and the flap itself for that reason



This guy, newly made for a smoothbore, will only carry paper cartridges on the trail and will be a belt bag.




I think I started putting buttons and one-piece flaps on my belt bags back in my trekkiing days because it seemed more secure in terms of contents...besides, they could be overloaded more securely...





Big help, huh?

[Mike from OK]

I've messed around and made bags with all 3 methods of flap construction... Single piece, stitched to the front, and stitched to the back and folded over.

Single piece construction and stitching the flap to the front are pretty straightforward.

The last bag I finished was made with the flap stitched across the back and folded over. I was unsure how well it would work so the bag was quickly done just to see how my idea(s) would turn out... After dying and oiling the flap I figured out where it would need to fold over and I lightly skived the inside of the leather and stitched it to the back of the bag. Then I dampened the leather and folded it over... But I didn't make it a tight fold... Just enough radius to lay well over the front of the bag. This seemed to help. A little rolling and working of the flap before stitching it to the bag may also have helped.

This is not a refined product but it did work as I hoped it would. I don't have near the experience or craftsmanship of others on here so take my input with that in mind.







Mike

[Marcruger]

That's a good looking and well crafted bag Mike!

[Mike from OK]

That's a good looking and well crafted bag Mike!

Thanks for the kind words Marc... It isn't too bad but it's still rough. That's the one I machine stitched and I got a little crooked on the stitching. More of an experiment than anything. But the flap attachment turned out better than I had hoped... If I can repeat it when I decide to make another that I carefully hand stitch I'll be pleased.

Mike

[P.W.Berkuta]

Are the front flaps made out of the same thickness of leather as the bag itself?

[Marcruger]

I personally do not care for the flap sewn flat across the top.  That design puts a lot of hinge folding stress in a narrow portion of the leather at the top each time it is opened (I have made a couple of that design).  In the long run, I view that as a failure point for the leather.  While it makes the flap lay flat, that also makes it harder to open (logically).  I personally prefer a wide hinge so more of the leather participates in the flexing.  Sharing the load so-to-speak.  Your mileage may vary. 

One other notable point is how the strap is sewn to the bag.  If stitched straight across along with the flap, that is a perforated failure point for the strap.  That needs to be thought out.  Straps are better attached with longitudinal stitching.

P.W., I prefer to make my flap out of heavier leather than the hinge.  Often a front and back piece sewn together. It keeps the flap down due to its own weight.  The hinge is thinner to better flex, and is oiled for longevity. 

No offense to anyone who does things differently.   Just the way I do it.  I am an engineer by trade and sold modern high-end leather for over 30 years, so I try to think leather things through carefully. I like to reason out issues rather than, "Well, I was just told this is the way." 

God Bless,   Marc

[Mike from OK]

I personally do not care for the flap sewn flat across the top.  That design puts a lot of hinge folding stress in a narrow portion of the leather at the top each time it is opened (I have made a couple of that design).  In the long run, I view that as a failure point for the leather.  While it makes the flap lay flat, that also makes it harder to open (logically).  I personally prefer a wide hinge so more of the leather participates in the flexing.  Sharing the load so-to-speak.  Your mileage may vary. 

One other notable point is how the strap is sewn to the bag.  If stitched straight across along with the flap, that is a perforated failure point for the strap.  That needs to be thought out.  Straps are better attached with longitudinal stitching.

P.W., I prefer to make my flap out of heavier leather than the hinge.  Often a front and back piece sewn together. It keeps the flap down due to its own weight.  The hinge is thinner to better flex, and is oiled for longevity. 

No offense to anyone who does things differently.   Just the way I do it.  I am an engineer by trade and sold modern high-end leather for over 30 years, so I try to think leather things through carefully. I like to reason out issues rather than, "Well, I was just told this is the way." 

God Bless,   Marc

Marc if I'm understanding you correctly...  The thinner leather hinge is stitched to the back of the bag... Folds over the top... And the heavier flap is stitched to the hinge.

Mike

[Marcruger]

Hi Mike,  I don't prefer to sew on a hinge.  I prefer it to be one piece with the back panel. If a hinge is sewed on from the back, you end up with a seam against your body.  That would tend to catch on things.  I like the back free of seams. 

Many ways to do these bags.  I have no lock on brain power and ingenuity.   :-)   God Bless,   Marc

[Mike from OK]

Thanks Marc... I have a better grasp of what you meant now.

Mike

[Nordnecker]

I just finished my first bag. I made the front flap out of two layers and sandwiched the top of the back piece between them, then sewed across the top to fasten it all together. It opens and closes and lays flat just fine. But what I don't like about it is where the ends of that seam are. It's all right on top of the bag. My sleeve kinda catches on it.
I see on Marc's latest bag that the hinge, or top of the back section is much longer, allowing it to fold down more, and the attachment is lower on the bag. The hinge piece is on top, not sandwiched between.

[T.C.Albert]

I believe the old professional makers would sew straight across the straps
Where they are attached in the flap seam to intentionally create
A failure point there. A strap will eventually fail. Sewn this way the repair is
Quick and easy and damage to the pouch itself minimal. I have
 observed plenty of evidence to support this thought while
Studying originals and even contemporary bags  over the years and can’t believe
the best makers Back in the day just didn’t know any better.
This is just my Just my take and I mean no offense, but For me
part of Preserving this craft is trying my  best to understand why
The old makers  did what they did and trying to learn from them
And what their work is trying to tell me.
TC

[James Rogers]

I've seen a ton of 19th century bags done that way as well TC. Very possible as to your theory as they were also in the business of repairs. Of course very few want to send back their bag every couple of years and have to pay to have repairs after toting 40 pounds of gear in their shot bag though these days ; ) I have also seen many other different types of original attachments
 I will say I like to to place my straps all kinds of ways as well as flap attachment. I just made one that had a separate "hinge" between the rear panel and flap. I also just saw one of Marc's bags with the straps attached to the side. This feature can be found in several English paintings of the mid 18th century. Its form is also popular for shotshell cartridge boxes of the first half of the 20th century.  With a supporting band around, it is very successful in handling weight.

[T.C.Albert]

Yes indeed. There are a ton of ways  bag flaps
And straps were attached to originals.
TC