Author Topic: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball  (Read 32725 times)

Candle Snuffer

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2009, 03:36:25 PM »
(Herb)
"Your 48.5" 200 yard drop is from a level barrel.  Read the second line down from there that shows bullet path from a 50 yard zero to be 40.03" at 200 yards.  Are you zeroed at 50 yards?"

(Snuffer)
I'm zeroed at 25 yards with a low fixed rear sight.  I haven't found but maybe a, 0 to 1/2" drop at 50 yards, and no more then 4" of drop at 100 yards over the years shooting a tight patched .445 RB w/ 65 grns 3fg Goex from the elevation at which I live.

When I chart reference for over 100 yards I use the 'Drop (IN)' line as I've found by
cutting this in half, it's very close to my actual drop at those longer given ranges.

The book I have - I've had since 1994 only because I lost my orginal somewheres along the line that I first bought over 30 years ago.  It carrys the 1975 copyright, but also the 1994 tenth printing date.

Has Lyman updated this book to your knowledge?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 03:38:20 PM by Candle Snuffer »

Candle Snuffer

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2009, 03:46:32 PM »
I was out shooting yesterday and took two shots a 200 yards, just for fun, I estimate the drop at 48", probably a little more.
.570 hand cast ball, .022" patching w/spit, 130gr. goex 2f, 48"barrel, flint. Does that sound about right, as far as drop?

Rob, my book doesn't list .570, but I can give you a .562 result.  It's not accurate but is
likely in the ball park;

Based on 1400fps

Drop (IN) -66.49
Bullet Path (IN) -53.38

What elevation do you shoot from, and what was your actual drop of those two shots?

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2009, 06:42:34 PM »
I find your results interesting Herb, and am curious as to what the elevation is where you shot your target?

I ask because I live at 4000 ft above sea level, and when I've tested/shot my .45 at 200 yards, the Lyman Black Powder Handbook claims that my 65 grain load of 3fg (near 1900fps MV) should drop 48.5 inches at 200 yards though it never has.
On average it only drops about half that in the 24 inch plus neighborhood. 

I see that your "actual" drop is in that same neighborhood as well with your rifle as where the Lyman book claims you should have a drop in the 50 inch plus neighborhood at 200 yards.

From what I gather from the Lyman book their (Lyman) testing was done at less
then 1000 ft above sea level, or perhaps very close to sea level?  The book is a good guide tool, but it is also useless until the numbers are put to the test at what elevation we will be shooting at.  That is unless you live at the elevation the book was compiled.

Now I will add that aside from living at 4000 ft ASL, we also have low humidity.  This I'm sure helps account for the variations as well.  I noticed this over 20 years ago when I lived in Ohio and shot at 860' ASL with high humidity.  The Lyman book was a whole lot closer to the numbers there then what they are here.

Thanks for the report, and that is a nice looking Hawken! :)

 

Lyman uses a 50 yard zero which greatly increases the drop.

Dan
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Daryl

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2009, 06:47:23 PM »
Sight height and actual zero range becomes increasingly important to getting exact figures, as do atmospheric conditions and elevation. A free program called 'pointblank' is or was available on line which will give drop figures 10' to 50 yard intervals + wind drift.  It may be a bit more accurate than the old Lyman tables - maybe not.  Zero distances must be 50 yards or farther. If you zero at 25 yards, chances are you will be zeroed again at 55 yards with normal sight height so the tables will reflect that.  I have found them to be accurate with all sorts of modern ammo and seem to work with the smokepole as well.  Note that any program such is this uses exact zero's and differences of fractions of an inch, difficult to see on paper, give different results down range.

1/2 the drop differences I don't know about.  I do know I've wondered why the program seemingly gave more drop than I was seeing, but carefully measuring on paper showed my actual 'zero's' didn't match what I'd printed off as drop figures for a certain load. The point blank program (free) closely matched the expansive Sierra program for accuracy - virtually identical. The expensive programs offer more 'fluff'.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 06:48:22 PM by Daryl »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2009, 06:50:32 PM »


This will give sufficient elevation for 200+. I got the idea from a photo of an original Hawken percussion with a similar base held by the rear tang screw.
Lollipop tangs threaded into the tang can also be used. These were similar to schuetzen rifle sights.
My 54 makes about 1900 fps with 90 gr of FFFG Swiss.
Dan
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Offline Robby

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2009, 06:53:42 PM »
Candle Snuffer, The elevation above sea level here is about 650 ft.. I have it zeroed at 100 yds., If I remember right, it shoots about 2-1/2" to 3" high at 50 yds., I didn't shoot at 50 yesterday, but I think I'm right about that. The target I was shooting was centered on a 4' high piece of plywood, I was aiming about 2' above the top edge of the plywood (est.), and the impact area was maybe 8 to 10" below the bulls eye centered on the plywood. The shooting light was perfect and I could see my sights pretty good. This is a real hoot!! Have you ever heard of anyone filing notches on the rear of the front sight to align the rear sight on, so the top of the blade could be put on target. Thanks!
    Robby
molon labe
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Candle Snuffer

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2009, 07:11:11 PM »
As a matter of fact I have heard of people filing notches in the rear of their front sight.  I've never done it, but anyone with good eyesight I'm sure could do it and see those notches.  Maybe 10 or 15 years ago I could have seen them, but 50+ year old eyes now,,, I don't think I could make them out?

Now I know someone on here (this forum) could tell you about the full buckhorn rear sight and how you could put that to use in longrange shooting. :)

Candle Snuffer

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2009, 07:20:44 PM »
Daryl,

Halving the numbers is my starting point for long range gong & paper.  As you say it is dependant on atmospheric conditions and elevation.  Usually I'll know what hold over adjustments to make after the first shot.  Sometimes more, sometimes less, while other times I guess it just about right.  Again though, it does depend on the atmospheric conditions along with the elevation at which we shoot just as you've said.

One thing I need to add is that the local range where I do most of my shooting does have a 21 foot rise over 300 yards according to the Transit Level reading taken 10 - 12 years ago.  I might imagine that this could play a part in what I have noticed with my long range shooting?  0.84" rise per yard if I figured that correctly?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 07:43:55 PM by Candle Snuffer »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2009, 09:56:28 PM »
Daryl,

Halving the numbers is my starting point for long range gong & paper.  As you say it is dependant on atmospheric conditions and elevation.  Usually I'll know what hold over adjustments to make after the first shot.  Sometimes more, sometimes less, while other times I guess it just about right.  Again though, it does depend on the atmospheric conditions along with the elevation at which we shoot just as you've said.

One thing I need to add is that the local range where I do most of my shooting does have a 21 foot rise over 300 yards according to the Transit Level reading taken 10 - 12 years ago.  I might imagine that this could play a part in what I have noticed with my long range shooting?  0.84" rise per yard if I figured that correctly?


You could check it with one of those "range compensating" range finders. ;D
It will be a slight difference but have no idea how much.

Dan
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Offline Herb

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2009, 10:42:32 PM »
Snuffer- Yes, Lyman has a "Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual"  all new 2nd edition, 2001.  It shows loads of 40 or 60 to 120 grains of Goex 3F and 2F, Elephant 3F and 2F, Pyrodex RS and P and Select powders with round balls and conicals of all kinds in different barrel twists and lengths. Shows muzzle velocity and energy, 100 yard velocity and energy, and pressure for muzzle loader calibers.  But no .40 caliber loads and no exterior ballistics.  I have the same first edition 10th printing that you have, and a very good book it is.

Robby, page 270 of the 2nd edition shows loads for a .58 caliber, .570 round balls, in a 32" barrel with 1-48 twist.  130 grains of Goex 2F gave 1699 fps MV.  Ballistic Coefficient (BC) of the .570 ball is .080 (a measure of streamlining or air resistance).  First edition shows exterior ballistics for a .562 RB (BC .079, an insignificant difference).  At 1700 fps, bullet path for a 50 yard zero is, 75 yards -1.3", 100 yards -4.3", 125 yards -9.3", 150 yards -16.6", 17 yards -26.7", and 200 yards -39.97".

If we adjust this trajectory (bullet path) for your zero, we go:  50 yards +2.5", 100 yards +5" (-4.3 + 5" = 1.3" high), 200 yards +10" (-40 + 10" sight raise) = 30" drop.
We don't know your velocity.  Working backwards from the tables to get 18" more drop to equal yours, would bring us to 1300 fps MV.  Bullet path from 50 yard zero = 58.88 drop at 200 yards.  Raised 10" for your higher 50 yard sighting would be about 48" drop that you show.  I do not know if that is your velocity.

Dan, that is a beautiful Hawken!  I like that sight.  I may make one like it for my personal testing use.  I'm getting the parts tomorrow to build another .58 fullstock flint hawken.  Tracks parts, Manton & Ashmore lock, which I like.  What kind of lock is yours?
Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2009, 08:48:43 AM »
Someone may wonder how I got a 27.25" drop from a 50 yard iron sight zero.  The scope crosshairs are 1.5" above the bore.  My iron sights are about .75" above.  So the scope raised the group (the bullets had to rise in a steeper arc to the 50 yard sight line) an extra .75" at 50 yards, or 1.5" at 100 yards, or 3 inches at 200 yards.  My 50 yard group center was 2 inches high, which made the 200 yard group center an extra 8 inches higher.  Eight plus three equals 11 inches, added to the 16.25" average drop with scope aim, equals 27.25".

Snuffer- I think exterior ballistics tables are corrected to sea level.  Lyman First Edition, page 171, explains Effects of Altitude Above Sea Level on Projectile Drop.  A .440 round ball at 1500 fps has a total drop at 200 yards of 65.26".  At 5000 feet elevation, it is 60.67", about 4.6" less.  (But their tables in back show 68.56" drop).

Page 174 has a table "Effects of Uphill or Downhill Shooting on Two Lyman Minie Bullets."  A .45 caliber 265 grain conical (BC .156) at 1400 fps fired at a 15 degree up angle has its drop reduced by 1.67" at 200 yards.  A .445 round ball with a BC of  .063 at 1400 fps drops 75" at 200 yards, about 50 percent more.  This would probably decrease the round ball drop by about 2.5" (is that right?) at 200 yards due to the 15 degree up angle.  15 degrees up is a lot.  I measured my 200 yard target elevation up on a hillside, using a carpenter's level on my bench and a protractor to sight the target angle, and it was about five degrees.  I can't remember my trigonometry to calculate how many feet rise that is, but someone reading this can do it.  What rise in angle is Snuffer's 14 feet target at 200 yards (600 feet)?

Lyman says "the changes in vertical drop with firing elevation angles is negligible even for very steep angles."

I also shot my Green River Leman (with a .54 Orion switch barrel, 34") at 50 and 200 yards.  120 grains of Goex 2F gave 1875 fps (yes, it has higher velocity).  Two inches high at 50 yards, 10 shots at 200 yards with enough breeze to bother.  Group averaged 20.75" low (iron sights .8" above bore), add the 8" for higher sighting at 50 yards, equals 28.75" drop.  Two torn patches, nine shots in 6.2" vertical spread, five of them in 2.4" band.  I could cover five shots with the flat of my hand.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 08:53:29 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2009, 03:25:27 PM »
Snuffer- Yes, Lyman has a "Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual"  all new 2nd edition, 2001.  It shows loads of 40 or 60 to 120 grains of Goex 3F and 2F, Elephant 3F and 2F, Pyrodex RS and P and Select powders with round balls and conicals of all kinds in different barrel twists and lengths. Shows muzzle velocity and energy, 100 yard velocity and energy, and pressure for muzzle loader calibers.  But no .40 caliber loads and no exterior ballistics.  I have the same first edition 10th printing that you have, and a very good book it is.

Robby, page 270 of the 2nd edition shows loads for a .58 caliber, .570 round balls, in a 32" barrel with 1-48 twist.  130 grains of Goex 2F gave 1699 fps MV.  Ballistic Coefficient (BC) of the .570 ball is .080 (a measure of streamlining or air resistance).  First edition shows exterior ballistics for a .562 RB (BC .079, an insignificant difference).  At 1700 fps, bullet path for a 50 yard zero is, 75 yards -1.3", 100 yards -4.3", 125 yards -9.3", 150 yards -16.6", 17 yards -26.7", and 200 yards -39.97".

If we adjust this trajectory (bullet path) for your zero, we go:  50 yards +2.5", 100 yards +5" (-4.3 + 5" = 1.3" high), 200 yards +10" (-40 + 10" sight raise) = 30" drop.
We don't know your velocity.  Working backwards from the tables to get 18" more drop to equal yours, would bring us to 1300 fps MV.  Bullet path from 50 yard zero = 58.88 drop at 200 yards.  Raised 10" for your higher 50 yard sighting would be about 48" drop that you show.  I do not know if that is your velocity.

Dan, that is a beautiful Hawken!  I like that sight.  I may make one like it for my personal testing use.  I'm getting the parts tomorrow to build another .58 fullstock flint hawken.  Tracks parts, Manton & Ashmore lock, which I like.  What kind of lock is yours?


This is a Don King flint Hawken from the 1970s maybe 80s.
Don made the lockplate and most lock internals, buying castings for the pan, frizzen, frizzen spring and the cock. The rest of the gun is shop made except the barrel. I made the sight 3-4 years ago.

This is the lock off another DK Hawken that Don bought back (he retired from gun making some years back)


There really is no lock on the market that makes a good Hawken.
The L&R that TOW sells as the "Ashmore" with the double throated cock is about the only choice. You may find it necessary to cut the front of the throat of the cock and bend it down just the amount the saw cuts out and reweld to get it to work best. Greatly helped the one I used years back.
Dan
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Daryl

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2009, 08:22:58 PM »
Marty - were the sights .8" above the bore - or above the bore's axis?  My actual measurements didn't make sense on the ballistics program, ie: ball path didn't match what the program showed, until I used measurements above the bore's axis.(centre of the bore)

Candle Snuffer

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2009, 03:59:07 AM »
Daryl, from the center of the bore to the bottom notch of my rear sight is .430 give
or take in the neighborhood of 7/16 of an inch.  This is a rough measurement I just did.  I only measured once and not three times to get a closer average.

Daryl

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2009, 04:37:06 AM »
I use the front sight for sight height.  The rear sight on my rifles seems to normally be about .040" higher.

Candle Snuffer

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2009, 05:59:56 AM »
Daryl,

From the top of my front sight to the bore's center is .435...

I remeasured the bottom of my rear sight notch to the center of the bore
and I get about the same reading of .435 to .438...

I had better lighting measuring this time around.  Also, my measurements
were done with a manual dial caliper so they aren't as accurate as a digital
reading.

I take very little blade on my sight picture. :)

Daryl

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2009, 06:00:26 PM »
Daryl,

From the top of my front sight to the bores center is .435...

I remeasured the bottom of my rear sight notch to the center of the bore
and I get about the same reading of .435 to .438...

I had better lighting measuring this time around.  Also, my measurements
were done with a manual dial caliper so they aren't as accurate as a digital
reading.

I take very little blade on my sight picture. :)

I'm not sure what 'very little blade' means.  Does it mean you're holding the blade down in the V or U, but that the level of the top of the sight is the one that's the same height as the front sight?  Holding the front blade down low inside the rear sight, would make the gun shoot low. If holding a bit of blade means you hold the blade above the level of the rear sight, this would give elevation to the shot and act the same as a higher rear sight. If holding very little blade on the sight picture means holding the sights level but high on the target, the same elevation could be given.

The sights on my .40 are probably within .020" of level, but the .45 demands more elevation, so there's about .050" difference. Of course, barrel length makes a BIG difference here. The longer the barrel, the greater the sights must move to elicit a response on the target.

Offline Herb

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Re: 200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2009, 06:29:55 PM »
Dan- a very nice lock.  The .58 fullstock flint Hawken I built using Track's Manton & Ashmore worked very well.  The first flint went 125 hammer falls, with some sharpening of course.  Never had a flint go that far before with any lock.  Don't know if I posted a photo of that rifle, but will do so in a day or so.  Should have the parts for my next one in the mail today, then will post on the For Sale forum where there have been over 900 looks at the ad listing these parts!
Herb