200 & 300 Yard Patched Round Ball

[Candle Snuffer]

One thing I've always found rather interesting is the number of folks who simply refuse to take part in long range shooting?  Naturally it's up to them and I don't push the matter one way or the other.  I just go about my business and smack metal down range...

Next thing you know that person is loading up and asking questions,,, "Are you aming right at that gong or holding over?"  My answer is always similar depending on condition at the range...

"I'm aiming about three feet high and 2 feet to the right," (again, depending on conditions & caliber I'm using, and at what range).  I then ask what they are using and what their load is and give them a bit of advise from their.  Heck, before you know it you got another long range shooter...

One thing I personally never do and that is adjust my powder charge.  I always stay with the same charge no matter what the range is.  I have found that Kentucky windage & elevation works a whole lot better for me - that way.

 

[Daryl]

Target shooting, is in itself, a means to an end, that of practise for hunting.(for many of us, that is)  To have a variety of loads for different ranges, defeats this practise as you cannot change loads in the field to suit your quarry. - and a quote, of course - "I have found myself face to face with wild elephants when looking for jungle fowl: and I have almost trodden on the tail of a tiger, when stalking a spotted buck". 
Of course, we have no elephants nor tigers around here, anymore (the beavers ate them all) but we do have bear, some more obnoxious than others - as many of the 'attacks' here, have been where an unwary hunter has come close to a bear's 'kill' -  this would not be the time to be packing a .45 longrifle.

  Buddy Keith did just that, many years ago, when hunting with his fiance - he told me that the .45 loaded with RB felt a pretty small in his hands when they faced off with a big one at about 10 yards. The bear moved off and Keith indicated he was sure glad it did - he didn't think his little rifle would have made much of an impression on that bear. Tara was still white as a sheet, 2 days later when they told me about her 'first' adventure, hunting with Keith. From then on, he packed the .75 English gun or something much newer in design.

It seemed every time Tara went hunting with him, they ran into grizzlies - the first 4 times, at least.  She didn't believe him when he said some people hunt around there all their lives without seeing one - just her good luck to see all those bears? Keith's a magnet for Griz.  I should have told her.

[Teach]

The trick in longer range shooting with a RB is that of unknown ranges.  After while one can find references to lob them in with.  It still takes a pretty steady hold for longer ranges as a little sight misalignment pulls off a long ways.

DP

In this video, slowed to half speed, you can see the arc of the round ball. The gong is 240 yds.

[Dphariss]

Location, location, location. Where I live keeping your hat on is sometimes a chore much less shooting.
To get a RB to stay where its pointed the wind has to cooperate. Such cooperation is not common anywhere along the "eastern front".
Right now I have wind at 32 with gusts to 40. I will lap a barrel today rather than shoot, being 10 degrees is not a real motivator, but wind from WSW usually means Chinook so it will  probably get to 30-40 today.
I HAVE actually shot a match with a RB with winds like this, the "group" is very very big at 200.
If I want to shoot past 100 or so I have to be out as the sun comes up, shoot a few rounds then the breeze starts. As soon as I get a breeze I have to quit. But no breeze I can keep many shots on a 6" bull and all on the paper at 200. At 300 with any wind say 10 mph the group is in feet. Though I have not tried it with the tang sight equiped 54.
The wind effects the RB like it does a 22 RF at long range it will cause all sorts of weird problems, high, low, up wind as well as down wind drift. With no wind it is possible to shoot reasonable scores at 200 with a 22 and fairly good with a 54 rb but when the wind comes up.... Even with good wind flags its just hopeless.

I figure if I am going to shoot that far I need a bullet so I use a BPC generally though if I can get the picket figured out I will likely try it at longer ranges. This is what it was originally meant for but was supplanted by the even longer cylindrical bullet. Think slug gun or Whitworth.

Dan

[Daryl]

Good elevation, Teach - bit to the right is all. I didn't see the arc of the bullet - maybe my cheap 20" flat monitor isn't showing it.  Some time ago, we had a BPCgt. match off sticks at 300 meters.  Some of the guys had .45/70's with 400gr. cast bullets. Through the spotting scopes, you could see the bullets falling onto the plate. It looked like they were being dropped straight down (optical illusion, of course) and they're a lot flatter shooting than round balls. The 560gr. bullets some of us were shooting from 3 1/4" cases appeared to have a very shallow arc onto the plates in comparison.  Round balls hit hard enough for smaller big game at the extended ranges, but are difficult to hit due to the extreme arc.  Once the velocity drops below the speed of sound, velocity loss is minimal - that is why the large bore rifles, like Forsythe's would still make both shoulders of a Sambar stag at 250 yards- even with light loads.  The longest range I've seen written about for round ball gun competition (impromptu) back in the mid 1800's is 150 yards.

Our cool weather has finally broken, except the wind is bad and will be for a while.  That cools things off a bit.  Hope to get out to compare Hoppe's with LHV as well as find the accuracy load for the "new" .40 cal. Squirrel rifle this week. Supposed to hold the warm weather for a week or more - hope so.  Might get Keith on the trail with his .75 and Brad with my old .69 (both made by Taylor, of course).  The gongs are going to suffer.

[Jerry V Lape]

Easier to see the ball if you use your mouse to sort of click a few frames at a time and know that the ball is coming in from the upper left side of the frame, crossing to hit the tree  just below and to the right of the wolf's head. 

[Daryl]

TKS, Jerrry- got it now - coming into the frame about 3' high on the left side, dropping across the target's head.

[Candle Snuffer]

I thought that was what I was seeing also.  I should have spoke up sooner but was waiting for someone else to confirm what I thought I was seeing here on my screen.  It does appear to be dropping in from the left of the frame and missing the target to the right.

[Teach]

Whoops, guess I should have said where to look. That was a 54 cal prb 100 grs FFFg
I hoping  you could see the arc a little clearer.

[omark]

i have read at least 2 accounts of american making good shots at extended range. one was at least 300 yds and the other was supposedly well over 400 yds. though im quite sure they were made by exceptionally good shots and very good conditions. some of those boys knew their rifles pretty well.

[Daryl]

It surely can happen - but conditions must be good, as Dan indicated.  With such dismal BC's, round balls are blown easily off track.

I found with the .69 and heavy charges, the wind drift was a lot less than smaller balls, of course.

[northmn]

As for those extended shots we read about.  I shot a crow once with a 22 hornet at at least 300 yards while it was swaying in a tree top.  That crow had more chance of dying from being struck by lightening and I will never duplicate that shot.  Some of the longer shots with breech loaders were "walked in" like artillery.  The long shots get made but a lot of misses occur before they get made.  This is talking about out in the filed at unknown ranges.  One can set up targets at longer range in his backyard and get pretty good at them.

DP

[BuffaloGun]

I've experimented with PRB at 200 ydnd was suprised at what I was able to do with practice.
Unfortunately the 300 yard station at my club is enclosed and guys aren't too happy when I show up with the .54s. The sights on most muzzleloaders were not designed for these ranges and it was strange using so much holdover to get on target. Wind is still the big problem buy practice is the key.
We have access to farm land back in PA and have a 24" gong at the end of a long, 600 yard, field. I use this to practice with my Sharps and move up to 200 yards to try the flinters. The Colonials could make these shots. I think I can learn to as well.

[Candle Snuffer]

I agree BuffaloGun!  If our ancestors were capable of making these kind of shots back in the day when powder and ball was a mighty precious item to obtain for many, and with the availability of powder & ball today (though becoming higher priced all the time), there really is no reason a person can't make these long range shots with some practice.

I approach this kind of shooting as competition shooting and it should be challenging.  If there was no challenge, it'd get kind of boring after a while shooting from so close of distances that the outcome of each shot is almost predetermined before the trigger is ever pulled. 

Granted, we want that predetermination of our shot when we're hunting, and getting close to our game is always preferrable, but there must be room for experimentation at the range with something like this long range shooting, if for nothing more then to satisfy our own curiosity or to show that,,, yes,,, targets can be hit from these ranges...  Targets were hit from these ranges...

[BuffaloGun]

'Snuffer, there are lot's of stories of the Colonials and the early mountain men making long shots and during the early days of the Republic shooting matches were common and folks hit 100+ shots allthe time. When I started BPCR I had trouble past 150 yards till I spent three days a weeK at the range( I work overnights with a 3 or 4 day week ) learning how the rifle and the loads worked. I have to believe that the riht loads for longer ranges can be worked up on a flinter just like they can be in a 45-70 or 45-110.
I know there are guys here who are FAR superior shots than I am and who have experimented with loads.
My .54 Lancaster is actually pretty accurate at 150+ using 125gr ffg and a tight PRB.
The hardest part was learning the sighting picture.

[Teach]

Reading this thread has given me an idea for our next fun shoot.
5 shots at 150 yds, best group, 2 sighters allowed (on Gong) glass allowed.
If it's favourable, I'll do the next fun shoot at 200yds .

Cheers Bob.

[Dphariss]

Some more thoughts on LR RB shooting.
I have found to get good groups a 200 the bore has to be clean.
I live in a low humidity (most of the time) location and I can brush with a bore brush then dump the loose fouling out and run a damp patch on a jag down to make sure the lands are clean. Simply brushing will not do this.
I then put in the powder, 90 gr of FFFG Swiss and "grease" the patch material with SPG Bullet Lube on the then barrel side seat the patch/ball flush and cut the patch at the muzzle. This will give the best group, so far, with my 54. But I seldom shoot this far since the wind is seldom low enough to really learn anything.
Loads that shoot very well at 100 may not shoot at 200, at least not as well as the rifle will actually shoot.
I also use a tang sight.
There are other things that may help. Like making a drop tube that ends just above the powder bed and drop the powder through this at a fairly slow rate. Helps with picket bullet  and slug guns and may help RB guns at longer ranges. It will make the powder burn more uniformly in the "bullet" guns so should help in RB guns. The rifling does not allow the powder to pack as it will with a smooth tube 5/16 to 3/8 in diameter.
Drop tube is the next project for the picket rifle. Since its still too windy to shoot.

Dan

[Candle Snuffer]

Reading this thread has given me an idea for our next fun shoot.
5 shots at 150 yds, best group, 2 sighters allowed (on Gong) glass allowed.
If it's favourable, I'll do the next fun shoot at 200yds .

Cheers Bob.

Good idea Bob!  Usually when we shoot long range at our club we just shoot at the gongs we set up, but now you have given me an idea that we could just set up a gong "sighter" at each range and then post the Palma Targets for scoring, just for something a bit different, and it would give those shooting a chance to get a read on their target, and make what adjustments they need from there with windage and elevation.

[Teach]

I was at a rondy in Ravensdale Wa last year and they had a shoot called "Over the Log''. The shooters were given a paper target and stand, told to follow the Booshway down range, till he was tired. That's where your targets were lined up.
IIRC we were setup at approx 135 yds.
Each person took 1 shot at their target. Range was made safe, and everyone walked downrange and inspected their target.
The booshway had red stickers that he handed out ?
His suggestion was for example, if you shot was 1 ft low and 1 ft left, make a cross with the stickers 1 ft high and 1ft right.To give you your corrected aiming point !
We shot 5 shots, benched , no glass. The scores were'nt all that impressive ,BUT I think everyone thoroughly enjoyed it.
Cheers Bob.

[Daryl]

Sounds exactly like a chunk shoot, Teach - that is if everyone lay down and shot 'over a log'.  The red stickers being for setting up your 'spotter' (aiming point).  Little different, except in 'chunk' the ranges are known and shot the same every year.

Good idea for a quickly set up chunk match - thanks for mentioning that.

[Herb]

I shot my .54 Hawken I made at 200 yards, but first target was 50 yards from bench.  Used .530 cast balls, 120 grains of Goex 2F, pillow ticking patch, wool overpowder wad and CCI 11 caps.  No cleaning or wiping.  First shot is usually low in velocity and group, but the group was so pretty (though normal for this load) that I shot only five instead of the usual six,  where I discount the first clean barrel shot.  Group is 2" high and 2" left, which moves it 8" higher and 8" left at 200 yards.


I had recently tested Goex 3F against Goex 2F, 80 to 120 grains in 5 grain increments, from bench at 50 yards.  Wanting to eliminate aiming error with iron sights, I hose-clamped this 4X Weaver scope to the rifle for the testing.  I believe the clamps put a strain on the barrel, because the groups were pretty loose.  That is why the scope on this rifle- I believe I can shoot groups this good with iron sights.  First shot was aimed at the lower right target, and its strike plotted from the upper right aiming bull.  I had to prop my front cradle up with about four inches of flat rocks to bring the rifle on the target, and the rifle jumped off the rest four or five times in the string.  I didn't keep track of which shots those were, might be the wilder ones, or they could be due to the right-hand breeze.


The close up photo shows the velocities better.  Shot number seven had a blown patch (lower velocity).  Deleting it, 10 shots averaged 1783 fps with 59 spread, no cleaning or wiping.  Average drop from point of aim (top right bull) is 16 1/4".  Ten of the 11 had a vertical spread of 6 1/2", seven of those were in a 3" band.  The scope cross hairs are 1.5" above bore center, total drop from a 50 yard iron sight zero is 27.25" at 200 yards.

With no wind and good light and rest and holding, I can shoot hand- sized groups at 200 yards, but I do not have adjustable iron sights to precisely hold on a target..  In these tests, I aimed at a target and let the balls fall where they would.

[Daryl]

Looks good Herb - it takes powder to shoot at longer ranges.  Had you increased the load to 140gr.2F, it may have done better at 200yards, maybe not - hard to say without testing.  That's a good looking rifle and she shoots well  - especially at 50 yards. I would expect it to hold in 1-1/2" to 2" at 100 yards off the bags with a good set of express sights.

[Candle Snuffer]

I find your results interesting Herb, and am curious as to what the elevation is where you shot your target?

I ask because I live at 4000 ft above sea level, and when I've tested/shot my .45 at 200 yards, the Lyman Black Powder Handbook claims that my 65 grain load of 3fg (near 1900fps MV) should drop 48.5 inches at 200 yards though it never has.
On average it only drops about half that in the 24 inch plus neighborhood. 

I see that your "actual" drop is in that same neighborhood as well with your rifle as where the Lyman book claims you should have a drop in the 50 inch plus neighborhood at 200 yards.

From what I gather from the Lyman book their (Lyman) testing was done at less
then 1000 ft above sea level, or perhaps very close to sea level?  The book is a good guide tool, but it is also useless until the numbers are put to the test at what elevation we will be shooting at.  That is unless you live at the elevation the book was compiled.

Now I will add that aside from living at 4000 ft ASL, we also have low humidity.  This I'm sure helps account for the variations as well.  I noticed this over 20 years ago when I lived in Ohio and shot at 860' ASL with high humidity.  The Lyman book was a whole lot closer to the numbers there then what they are here.

Thanks for the report, and that is a nice looking Hawken!

 

[Herb]

Daryl- I have shot up to 150 grains of Goex 2F in three .54's in testing, but don't have records of my groups, including some at 200 yards.  My Green River Leman, which I made there in 1978 in .45 caliber and later fitted a 34" .54 Orion switch barrel to for elk hunting, gave 1998 fps with 145 grains of Goex 2F.  A recent test with 120 grains of Goex 2F averaged 1875 fps.

A custom left hander I made with a 32" Green River barrel gave with 120 grains of Goex 2F 1795 fps, 145 grains gave 1919 fps, 150 grains gave 2081, 1944 (25 spread) and 1958 fps in three tests,  probably with different patches and lubes.

A Track .54 Carson Hawken I built, 34" Green Mtn barrel, gave with 150 grains of Goex 2F, 1948 and 1985 fps (27 spread).  I didn't think there was enough velocity gain beyond 120 grains to use more powder, but I didn't compare the accuracy.

Candle Snuffer, my shooting is at 6000 feet elevation, low humidity.  You are referencing the First Edition Lyman book, for those who have the second edition with no exterior ballistics.  Your 48.5" 200 yard drop is from a level barrel.  Read the second line down from there that shows bullet path from a 50 yard zero to be 40.03" at 200 yards.  Are you zeroed at 50 yards?

Your quote of 50 inches plus (51.15") for a .54 is total drop at 1700 fps.  Mine averaged 1783 fps at about 15 feet, probably about 1800 fps true MV.  That shows a total drop of 46.64", or 37.71" from a 50 yard zero.  But I was two inches high at 50 yards, which raises the trajectory 8 inches at 200 yards.  37.71" minus 8 inches is about 30 inches drop, closer to my measured 27.25".  The 200 yards was laser ranged.  I enjoy the comments and comparisons.

[Robby]

I was out shooting yesterday and took two shots a 200 yards, just for fun, I estimate the drop at 48", probably a little more.
.570 hand cast ball, .022" patching w/spit, 130gr. goex 2f, 48"barrel, flint. Does that sound about right, as far as drop?