Need help with a TC Renegade

[Jerry V Lape]

New shooter contacted me for help with his Renegade, recently purchased from an estate.  He isn't really familiar with muzzleloaders and now has a load in the barrel which will neither fire nor will it discharge with compressed air at 50 psi.  I looked up TC's manuals and they don't have one which is Renegade Percussion specific.  The question is whether the Renegade is made with a flat breech plug or does it have an anti chamber between the nipple and the main charge? 

Measuring with the ramrod it does not appear he has more than a single load in the barrel.  It is a Pyrodex and patched round ball with prelubed commercial patch.  The Pyrodex came with the rifle so I have no idea how old it may be and whether it has been stored properly.  He has gotten rid of that batch on my recommendation.  He has also immersed the breech in water to kill the charge.  He has also put some lubricant down the bore to help with easing that load out.  Even so the 50psi made no progress.  He is going to try with higher psi this evening after work.  But if this rifle has an anti chamber which has built up a hard corroded blockage over the years of non use I would like to know about that first.  I have never had a load that 50psi wouldn't expel so something unusual is going on there.  I am not willing to tell a novice to pull a ball.   So this one is going to come out from the rear one way or another.  I have already seen a couple accidents with ball pulling and don't intend to be party to another. 

[bgf]

Your caution is commendable, but if the charge is thoroughly wet from both sides, the danger should be minimal.  Exposure while pulling the ball is about equal to loading if a fixed puller (something to hold the ramrod) is used, NOT another person pulling on the ramrod.  Anyway, I don't think it is rash if done carefully, if your conscience can be swayed, but I won't try to convince you any more forcibly.

Otherwise, how about a grease fitting in place of the nipple, then pump out with grease gun.  On problem with "vintage" muzzleloaders is that they often have somewhat rough bores (which compounds stuck balls) until they are either polished a little or shot some (not to mention the PYRODEX, gasp! -- that is another can of worms), so the grease won't do any harm except make a mess.

Good luck, and try to check the thing over carefully.  If it was shot with Pyrodex and not cleaned properly every time, it could be badly corroded, not just the bore, but also possibly the breech.

[smokinbuck]

Jerry,
The TC's do have a powder chamber in the face of the breech plug. Many times, as you have surmised, that chamber gets filled with fouling and blacks the flash channel from the nipple. Unless you pull the load, after soaking it good with oil, you will have to get it un-breeched and that is a pain. It was suggested to me recently that the chamber should be reamed out square on the bottom, and bore diameter, to eliminate this problem.
Mark

[Militant_Hillbilly]

When I get one that doesn't want to budge, I use a T-handled ramrod and find a tree with a narrow fork. I wedge the T-handle in the fork and pull from the breech end of the barrel. That's the best and safest way that I know of to pull a stuck ball.

[Jerry V Lape]

Thank you for the helpful response.  I suspected the blockage was in the powder chamber in the breech plug but wasn't sure whether this gun had a powder  chamber.  I am still not sure he didn't load on top of another old load but from his description of how much ramrod sticks out of the barrel, compared to measure against the exterior it appears if there is a second load it is a dry ball.  I am doing this by remote control, he is in Colorado and I am in AZ.  I am quite familiar with the safest ways to pull a ball and how to pump one out with a grease gun but I think we will get it tonight with the air compressor.  

Smokingbuck,  do you know the approximate diameter of that powder chamber?  

I am not sure why I keep getting the calls on these problems, but if I can keep them safe I don't mind.  

A friend was in charge of a large scout outing here in AZ which included an introduction to muzzleloading in which approx 1700 youths got to load and fire a percussion rifle.  Supervision broke down on the loading process with one kid who after each misfire put an entire new load on top of the old.  Wound up with three loads in the gun.  My friend tried to pull the ball, not knowing exactly what he was dealing with.  When he applied pressure to the rod to help get the screw started into the ball the charge between the 1st and 2d balls went off.  His round ball top ramrod threw his hand out of the way so he only had some burns and blisters .   There were a couple other foul ups involved which caused the misfires but we finally got the whole structure properly trained prior to the following years event.  

[smokinbuck]

Jerry,
I think the chamber is 5/16. I've been told that it "may" be 3/8 but I'm leaning toward the 5/16. I will be pulling a LH breech plug, for use in another barrel, but won't get to it until next week.
Mark

[Don Steele]

Mark,
(Or anyone else who knows....)
I'd love to know more about the specifications of the TC breech. Pics of one pulled from a rifle would be awesome.
I've been trying to understand what they look like, and frankly WHY they are used in the first place. I read the "puts powder closer to the cap or vent" stuff...but that doesn't seem like a reasonable justification for their use given the cleaning issues that seem to go along with them.

Thanks.

[smokinbuck]

Don,
It will probably be the middle of the week before I get this one debreeched. I can't post but will be glad to forward some pics of it when I get it out. I don't know what the thinking was behind the design either but I know it causes some headaches.
Mark

[William Worth]

Given that you are assisting this gentleman long distance, I would be inclined to suggest that he simply replace the barrel with an after market barrel and set aside the problem one to be dealt with later.

[Hungry Horse]

 I'd take the barrel out of the stock, remove the nipple, and submerge the breech in a bucket of water with a little dish soap in it, as a wetting agent. I'd pour some down the bore as well. Let it set a few hours, and then get a metal range rod, with a good ball puller, that has a brass protection ring on it, and screw it into the ball. Now, put the barrel back in the stock, so you have something to hang onto. And, clamp the range rod in a good secure vice. Pulling on the rifle should remove the ball, and if something goes wrong you aren't hanging onto the range rod looking down the bore.
 De-breeching almost always goes badly when a newbie tries it with long distance instructions, and a new drop in barrel for an old Renegade would no doubt cost more than he paid for it.

              Hungry Horse

[Jerry V Lape]

Just to wrap this up with a report on the results.  After soaking the breech end of the barrel in mix of ballistol and water for several hours, picking at the blockage in the breech with a copper wire through the threaded hole for the nipple, he was able to blow the plug out with his compressor at 115 PSI.  The barrel is clean but the powder chamber is a mess.  He is going to work on it with the powder chamber brass tool a bit.  There was only the one load in the bore.  He had not known to snap a cap and see that it moves some grass to determine the channel was open before loading. 

I think he will have continuing trouble with the chamber fouling as it is probably pretty well corroded after years with a block of Pyrodex build up.  Advised him to pull the breech and have a machinist or gunsmith ream that chamber to smooth metal if he does have a continuing issue with it. 

[smokinbuck]

Don,
Regarding pictures of the breech plug powder chamber; I was going topull it today but there was another fellow in there who bought it instead. Sorry, no pictures. From what I can see on other TC plugs the chamber is a cone shaped cylinder that has a rounded bottom ans is 5/16" in diameter. That's why TC shapes their ram rod jags the way they do, in order to get into the chamber. Not a good arrangement.
Mark

[T*O*F]

I think the chamber is 5/16. I've been told that it "may" be 3/8 but I'm leaning toward the 5/16.

I'd lower a ramrod drill down into it and turn it "by hand" to ream out all the old crapola built up inside.

BTW, there used to be special jags available for TC guns that were stepped.  The end was the size of the chamber and the top was sized for the bore.  I think they may have come directly from TC.

[smokinbuck]

TOC,
You are right about the stepped jags, they did come from TC. Your suggestion of a long bit, ramrod or other, is a good one.
Mark

[Bob Roller]

One problem that occurred with early versions of the T/C Was a breech
plug with a 45 calibler chamber and a .36 caliber barrel. The patch would gram and
then IF the owner was lucky, the plug might be removed.Some of them were so tight that
they were not removeable.I still have a section of a T/C barrel a very big friend who
was 6"8" and 365 pounds couldn't break loose.I gave the rest of the barrel to another
friend who forged it into a pipe tomahawk.

Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

All this has reminded me of a cartoon in an old Buckskin Report from the 70's.  "Do you guys shoot Thompson Centers around here?"  Some of you will remember it too.