Double Set Triggers

[moleeyes36]

I realize that much of what you see in pictures of contemporary made long rifles isn't true to the original rifles or at least not the earlier ones.  Which brings me to double set triggers on long rifles.  I see them included in parts sets sold today for builders but I don't know if they would or would not have appeared on the original American long rifles.  When did double set triggers start appearing on American long rifles? 

[Dave B]

Others will correct me if I am wrong but The Germans were probably the first to make rifles in colonial America with set triggers. Christian springs PA was making early rifles with set triggers  and  smiths from there moved down south in to the Carolinas.

[Acer Saccharum]

Yes, Dave, I've seen some early Germanic guns with DST's. Roughly 1750-60's era. You didn't see DST's much in NYS or New England until the 19th Century.

[moleeyes36]

Yes I've also seen pictures of original Jaeger rifles and Christian Springs rifles with double set triggers.  But how common and how early did double set triggers commonly appear on Lancaster, Lehigh, Bucks County, York, and the other schools that came after the Christian Springs rifles?  I take the pictures of these rifles in all the catalogs and websites selling parts sets/kits with a gain of salt because I know they aren't necessarily accurate to the styles they claim to represent. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Get the Rifles of Colonial America by Shumway, and survey the rifles in there.

[PPatch]

Double set triggers on these long rifles are just too darn touchy for me - once you set that rear bugger. I mean, a fraction of an ounce only on the front one and it fires. I am used to being able to take up a bit of slack (almost nothing but SOME), stopping, and then squeezing off the shot. With double sets it is touch, or breath in/out or think and BANG! I am having trouble getting used to that.

The rifle I am building has a "normal" trigger (no "set" just pinned high, 3/8ths forward of the sear arm). It has an acceptable (to me) take up, creep, then a nice crisp solid release at maybe 2 1/2-3 pounds. Perfect in my book.

So the question is... what is the fascination with those set triggers and were they as touchy back in the day as the ones we have available today?

dp

[WadePatton]

Dave, I love 'em.  Creepy pulls drive me nuts.  I started working on my guns in general to fix triggers first and foremost.  

To be fair, i've not yet tried a proper single trigger at 2-3 pounds to compare it (in a longrifle).  Am willing to give it a try someday.

[Vomitus]

   Two different regimens,that's all.

[kutter]

I like DST but got in to them much earlier on Mauser and Steyr sporter rifles so they were no stranger.
What I have found is that people have a fascination with the ability to adjust most of them down to a fraction of an ounce for the let-off. The novelty of the mechanism seems to take them over more than what the mechanism can be adjusted to do to benefit their shooting style.

Yes it's something to see and experience tripping the trigger & hammer by a mere puff of breath, but after that showtime high wears off, try tuning it back to a 1 lb pull +/- an oz or so. That's a nice light, crisp trigger that goes off when you want it to, but not so crazy light that you can't even feel the trigger against your finger before it does.

That said I still find no complaint with a standard trigger that works smoothly, A bit of take up, then a pull and reasonably clean break at around 4 pounds will do most anything you need to do. I don't get too picky about triggers unless they feel like there's a  safety engaged when I'm trying to pull the trigger. Then they need some attention.

[doug.brayman]

I have never owned a rifle without double set triggers; however, after just completing my flintlock pistol build, I dont know that I would build my next with double sets. I was able to pull off a short crisp 1lb (estemated) trigger on it. Cant wait to shoot it tomorrow for the first time.

[Bob Roller]

I have made double set triggers for years but prefer a single trigger with
a tuned lock.
Mike Neumann in South Africa sent me an E mail this morning saying that
now a certificate of competency is required for muzzle loaders now and that
Swiss powder is now $150 a Kilo--2.2 pounds.
Mike makes fine sights for muzzle loaders,mostly long range types but now
that powder has gone out of sight his muzzle loading work has dwindled to
nearly nothing.He also makes jewelry but I don't know anything about it
beyond the fact he said he makes it.

Bob Roller

[Lucky R A]

 Moleeys,  I have never seen an original Bucks Co. rifle with double set triggers.  I know that you are working on one, so that may answer the unasked question.   The classic Bucks co. simple trigger has a decorative reverse curl at the bottom.  Some were only a vestige of  a curl and others an elaborate full curl or more.  As stated, with proper architecture a simple trigger can be set up to give a very acceptable trigger pull.
     Double set triggers do not need to be, nor should they be scary light.  The adjustment screw is there for a purpose.  If you examine a set of double set triggers out of the gun and turn in the adjustment screw, you will find that you can fire them just by turning in the adjustment screw too far.  A scary light set trigger is an unsafe trigger!   The gun should not be carried with the trigger set, as the slightest bang or bump can fire the gun.   It is the duty of the user to responsibly adjust the trigger, and to understand mechanically how it works.  We do not need bad press for an accidental discharge with tragic results...Ron

[moleeyes36]

Ron, yes I've put double set triggers in the Bucks County style hunting rifle I'm working on, but unfortunately I didn't originally start out trying to make it PC.  40 years ago when I started into muzzle loading I lived out west and everyone I knew shot half stock plains style rifles with a DST.  It wasn't until I moved back east that I got hooked on flintlock long rifles.  But by then I'd gotten into the DST habit.  This will be my last rifle with a DST.

I got lead astray, I seems, into the DST and wooden patch box approach by all the catalog pictures and on-line images of about every style of long rifle with wooden patch boxes and DST.  I should have stayed with Shumway's RCA.  Luckily, you and some of the other guys on the ALR forum got me straight about the wooden patch box before I installed it.  I now have the correct brass side opening patch box to install.  The release button in the toe plate will be a first for me.  I'll have to go slow there to keep out of trouble.

Ron, you mentioned once on the forum how much you liked Bucks County rifles.  I really like the looks and fit of this one I'm building and am starting to get hooked on them myself.  I have Shumway's RCA, Lindsay's The Kentucky Rifle, and a few other references but there seems to be little on Bucks County rifles in them.  Do you know of some reference material (hopefully with some decent pictures) on Bucks County rifles I could try to locate?  Thanks.

Mole Eyes

[WadePatton]

I failed to include that I breezed through a book of TN originals last evening-no rifle with a single trigger in the book.  A Bean pistol yes, but no long guns. 

Singles aren't really a TN option, if one follows the trend established by most of the old guns.

I would of course, use a single on any "school" calling for it.  But as a shooter, prefer 'em the hair of the set.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I just received a nice set of single acting set triggers from Bob Roller, and they are beauties!!  They're going into an iron mounted TN rifle with furniture by Tornichio (sorry if I spelled it wrong).  I should post a picture - they're really pretty.

[Dphariss]

The Roller triggers I found at a gun show, two Hawken sets are the only triggers I have ever bought that worked. The guy that had them sold em too cheap. I did not argue. 

[Bob Roller]

Taylor,
That is a pleasant surprise.The colors show up better in the picture than they did
when I assembled the unit.
Thanks for posting these.

Bob Roller

Dan,
your compliment came in just as I signed my name. Many thanks for the nice comments.

Bob

[PPatch]

I have a Roller (USA) DST just like that one Taylor, and a lock by that same gentleman. Both are works of art, not exaggerating. And, smooth working as greased owl plop.

You're the man Bob Roller!

dp

[whetrock]

Mike Neumann in South Africa sent me an E mail this morning saying that
now a certificate of competency is required for muzzle loaders now ...
Bob Roller

Hey Bob,
Did Mike describe what this "certificate of competency" involves?  Is this a gunsmith's license, or is it a post-build evaluation of a firearm before it can be legally used?

(Moderators, please move this if necessary.)

[Bob Roller]

The certificate of competency apparently applies to the individual.
He told me the police called his wife and asked if he was sane.
This is police state BS and not beyond our own government.

Bob Roller

[WadePatton]

Double set triggers on these long rifles are just too darn touchy for me -...

dp

Dave have you thought about a heavier spring/wire on the set trigger?  I used to trim/replace/reshape trigger springs on the unmentionables.  If i wanted a few more ounces on the pull of my DST's, I'd think one could modify the components or pivots to provide more resistance without affecting engagement/function.

Bob have you made such? or your thoughts.

[black ed]

Wade,
Not to steal your thread.
 
There was a photo of an original double set trigger that was pushed forward rather than back to set the trigger. the front "set" trigger was curved to match the trigger guard bow. How would the "guts" be configured to make it work.

Bob, have you ever made a set of triggers like that?
Black Ed

[Bob Roller]

Black Ed,
I have seen such triggers and know the mechanics of them and am trying
to remember WHERE I saw them. No,I haven't made any like that and don't plan to.
I have more work now than I can properly service and any odd custom jobs are
not available from me.
    Wade,
A heavier front trigger tension spring can help with touchy triggers.I test a double
set trigger by simply setting it an then pushing down on the front trigger spring
with the trigger NOT adjusted for any light touch or pull.If it goes off then the
design is not right.Properly contoured,the front trigger should be a latch and I
test by pushing hard on the rear trigger which is another method in addition to
compressing the front spring.If it's NOT contoured correctly then it becomes a
hinge that relies on the heavy tension or upthrust of the spring to keep it set.
The original triggers on the Hoffman&Campbell supposedly carried by Francis Parkman
were like this and very unstable.I copied them but thought they were a bad idea.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

If a set trigger will not stay set with the front trigger spring depressed it is either set too light or the relation between the sear surfaces on the triggers and the front pin hole are incorrect. This either results in a very heavy trigger, even without a FT spring or a trigger that will not stay set without significant FT spring tension.

Most "store bought" triggers are one or the other. Few are right.
This is one of the Roller Hawken triggers I did a short demo of when I checked them out after getting them home  2-3 years ago.
http://s72.photobucket.com/user/DPhariss/media/Video%201/BobRollertrigger.mp4.html
Dan

[Bob Roller]

Dan,
Thanks for the demo with my triggers. My later triggers have a FT
spring that is a hollow rectangle so in the event one side cracks,the
other side might keep the trigger working as a set trigger.What is the date
on those triggers that you used in illustration?

Bob Roller