darkening an already finished stock

[axelp]

I have a sharps repro that I am thinking of darken the stock finish. Leather dye? or is there a better solution? Would it be better to strip the old finish first--I read here on this board that leather dye will penetrate passed other finishes?

K

[Mark Elliott]

If you want the rifle to look newish, then I would suggest you strip the finish and re-stain.   I have touched up spots through linseed based finish, but you are not going to get an even result that way.   If you want the rifle to look aged, then you can darken the finish with a glaze (artist grade drying oil and a little artist oil paint (lamp black) for color).   You paint on thick, let dry, then scrub off as desired using 000 or 0000 steel wool or equivalent Scotchbrite pads.   Several coats might be required to look right.  You can tint with other colors if you want a brown as opposed to black.   Basically,  you are applying a faux finish and your artistic ability will dictate the result. 

[WadePatton]

Might save yourself some work by contacting the maker/seller and finding out what finish is on your gun.

[Mark Elliott]

If it has an catalyzed finish on it,  forget re-finishing it unless you are prepared to sand off every bit of the finish; and the finish is harder than the wood.

[WadePatton]

If it has an catalyzed finish on it,  forget re-finishing it unless you are prepared to sand off every bit of the finish; and the finish is harder than the wood.

Mark, would scraping be better than sanding in that case?

[Hungry Horse]

Ken;  Some place on this forum Mike Brooks posted a tutorial on shaping and finishing a stock. At the very end of the tutorial he shows how he accents the caring and darkens the stock. Are you sitting down? He rattle cans the stained stock lightly, with Rustoleum flat black, and rubs it back with fine steel wool, and them rubs on three more coats of finish. You won't believe how beautiful this gun turned out.
 I haven't tried this yet. It might be pretty hard to do sober. I think I'll try it on one of my salvage give away guns first. TTYL.

                    Hungry Horse

[Mark Elliott]

If it has an catalyzed finish on it,  forget re-finishing it unless you are prepared to sand off every bit of the finish; and the finish is harder than the wood.

Mark, would scraping be better than sanding in that case?

I am pretty sure the sandpaper is harder than a scraper, and it is still really hard to get off.   I hate that stuff.  My father used to use it for commercial cabinet work, and they used it on school furniture where we both used to work.   That stuff would stand up to years of abuse by elementary school kids and still look halfway decent, in an industrial sort of way.    They put it on a lot of manufactured cabinet work these days.    Our Kraftmaid cabinets have it on it.     I prefer a finish that can be easily removed or repaired.   With the catalyzed finish,  it is easier to throw the cabinets or furniture away than refinish them.   I am pretty much sure that is what the manufacturers intend. 

[WadePatton]

if you can't melt it off, or stain through it, I'd go after it with broken glass, my favorite ultra cheap, disposable scraper.

[kutter]

Try the leather dye and see if it penetrates. It may work out fine.
 
Another is Solar-Lux brand stains by by Behlen. A different solvent base and they can penetrate some that most anything else won't
http://www.woodcraft.com/category/2007234/behlen-solar-lux-stains.aspx
Still have a couple of bottles left over that get the call for touch up once in a while, but I don't use them for complete jobs anymore.

The Laurel Mountain Stains will penetrate finishes as well. I don't know what solvent base they use but it's something other than alcohol.
Just another one to try.

You can go broke experimenting!



I'd remove the factory finish ,,,,

I don't care for using the liquid/semi liquid strip stuff so I usually scrape old finishes off.
A lot faster actually and is done with nothing more than a simple pocket knife,, or other short straight blade knife.
A butt stock w/no complicated architecture shouldn't take more than about 20 to 30 minutes to do.
I did have an Ithaca SBT Gr7 that someone refinished w/some type of thick epoxy stuff. That one took longer and had lots of complicated checkering pattern to work around. But short of rasping it off which I didn't want to do, scraping was the only other option as nothing else would touch it.

Sharp blade of course. Back the blade with your thumb and place it down onto the wood, Then simply push the blade accross the surface. You can quickly learn to adjust how little or how much the blade scrapes by using your thumb that's backing up the blade. No, you won't cut your self.

This technique also avoids the tiny set-down marks you sometimes get on the wood using a simple knife blade as a scraper. Your thumb  becomes a bumper and height adjustment to the blade.

Scrape at any direction,,what ever is convenient to remove the old finish. Very light cuts.

You may have to free-hand it (w/o the thumb backing up the blade) around some areas like raised side panels and the like. But you'll catch on to how easy it is to do and how light a touch is necessay to remove a finish this way that you won't be doing any damage to the wood underneath.
Grip the tip of the blade with the other hand/fingers and use it as a two handed scraper if you need to when you get in small radiused area and the like.

Watch and make sure the short end of the blade and handle don't ride on the wood while you're working..that'll leave a nice long groove in the surface. I grind that little nub on the blade right off on some knives to make sure it doesn't ever become an issue.

When the finish is removed, I sand w/220 garnet. Then to 320 and 400. It's ready for stain and then finish at that point.

[Dphariss]

I have a sharps repro that I am thinking of darken the stock finish. Leather dye? or is there a better solution? Would it be better to strip the old finish first--I read here on this board that leather dye will penetrate passed other finishes?

K

Order some of the English Red and Pre-64 Pilkington stains from Brownells. They will penetrate most finishes.
If its Walnut and light colored its likely been sealed and/or finished with a synthetic "oil" that did not properly react with the wood to give it color.
You might want to strip it and refinish with a natural drying oil.
I would not recommend leather dye.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Sanding for refinishing.
I sometimes think people have stock in sandpaper companies. Some recommend sanding guns with 120 to "refinish" sheer idiocy. Last time I saw this was recommended on Midway USA where the head guy at Midway was refinishing a Rolling Block. I guess he has stock on both sandpaper and stock duplicators. I often wonder if this is not recommended in Gunsmithing books to teach laymen to get "not try this at home".

An epoxy stripper will take off plastic finishes.
Second 220 is only needed if there there marks from something being used on the wood. Like 120 or 150 grit or a file.
Once stripped try 0000 steel wool to see if this will give the wood a little polish and remove any grain that has been raised. STEAM OUT DENTS don't sand they out. Sanding them out will likely cause them to erupt with the grain is raised as need because excess wood was removed. Then refinish after its rested a day or three from the stripping.
Attacking an already fit and finished stock with anything coarser than 320 is a wonderful way to have HIGH METAL from excess wood removal from sanding it with too coarse a paper than having to sand out the 220 grit marks etc etc.
In the event that something should require using paper coarser than 320 during a stock refinish needs to be done with  CARE especially where there is metal to wood fit, actions, locks, inlays ect.
I very seldom use anything coarser than 150 when taking wood off a new stock. If I do its more like as a fine rasp by wrapping it on a rubber hose to finalize a contour.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I have a sharps repro that I am thinking of darken the stock finish. Leather dye? or is there a better solution? Would it be better to strip the old finish first--I read here on this board that leather dye will penetrate passed other finishes?

K

If its Italian it may have "French" walnut stocks and without something like boiled linseed oil it will stay pretty light and will not get really dark even then.
This is pretty typical for this wood with BLO based finish.

Dan

[axelp]

Dan, Its an older model Shiloh from Wolfgang era mid 80s before the split-- the addy is Montana however. It has the old long freebore chamber. Plain walnut. The finish is not bad, I just like a little darker finish, especially for plain walnut.

K

[Dphariss]

There was a sealer they were soaked for a few minutes in that was in a bucket but my memory fails me as to its name.
IIRC the top coat was Homer Formbey's Tung Oil low gloss in that white bottle and not a lot of that. The Pilkingtons I mentioned are the best bet for color. Try the Pre-64 then use the English Red if you want. It should do the trick.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/wood-stains/classic-spirit-stains-prod9816.aspx
Dan

[Dphariss]

I used the pre-64 on a Garand someone had sanded the buttstock on (probably starting with 120) and it no longer matched the unsanded hand guards. Pre-64 and some BLO matched the color very well.
I think the original finish was tung oil on this mid-50s version.
Dan

[Hungry Horse]

 Ken;

  If you choose to go with the leather dye, order some Lincoln's online. It has much more color in it than any of the others. It can be evened out by rubbing over the freshly applied dye with a damp cloth. None of the others behave this way. Its also pretty good for coloring and aging powder horns as well.

                       Hungry Horse

[Three balls]

I have a rifle, that I used a furniture type, Home depot like stain on, and BLO, and now it's orange. I'd like to strip it, and use AF stain,on it, is that possible or have I already goofed it up, beyond repair. It's a maple stock, and has some decent figure. What do y'all think, thanks.
Earl

[WadePatton]

I have a rifle, that I used a furniture type, Home depot like stain on, and BLO, and now it's orange. I'd like to strip it, and use AF stain,on it, is that possible or have I already goofed it up, beyond repair. It's a maple stock, and has some decent figure. What do y'all think, thanks.
Earl

It's easier to go darker.  Many stain users start with orange, then go over that with dark brown even with black mixed in.  Scrap/sand back to bare wood as discussed above (don't worry about the color).  Try AF and see what it does, i get better results blushing the acid with a propane torch than stove eye.  You may get a great color.  Or you may want to make it real dark.  Color it dark then rub back the surface to the color/wear you want.  Then finish.

[Three balls]

Many thanks Mr. Patton

[frogwalking]

Dqark brown Briwax will darken it some, and impart a wonderful gentle luster.  Couldn't be any easier, but may not be as dark as you want.

[Three balls]

Thanks gents, I appreciate your thoughts.
Earl

[axelp]

I just spoke to Kirk at Shiloh and he says he thinks the finish used on the guns back then was tung oil. does that make any diff on the best way to darken an already finished stock?

K

[Artificer]

Years ago when I dropped one of my Collie Dog girls to get bred in Pennsylvania, there was an 18th century mansion in town that I had time to visit.  In the small book shop was a reprint of an 1822 book on cabinet making with modern notes and explanations in it.  It mentioned that much of the information was stolen from 18th and even some 17th century text, as copyright laws were nonexistent or
 ineffective and many people did not even consider it was something wrong at the time. 

The real Gem in the book for me was when they explained that early cabinet makers used a base coat of oil or shellac on the wood BEFORE they stained it to fill up especially the open pores of end grain so the stain would not sink in too much there.  After that coat dried, they lightly scraped off the surface of the wood so it would stain evenly. 

If one has seen a few M1 Garand stocks, they often show dark blotches of stain on the underside and top of the pistol grip, front of the top of the cheek piece and sometimes just ahead of the trigger housing.  The reason those areas are blotchy is that is where end grain sucks up the stain more than regular surface grain, when there is no base coat of oil or shellac covering the open end grain.

I have done a lot of refinishing of M1903 stocks that require the hand guard and stock to “match” in color and even worse, M1 Garand stock sets that one has to match THREE pieces of wood in color.   

Taking the tip from the old Cabinet Maker’s Guide mentioned above, I have tried shellac and a number of things as the base coat.  What I have found works best is to rub a deep coat of Birchwood Casey’s Tru Oil into the stock after sanding and actually rub most of it off the surface before setting it aside to dry.  Then give it plenty of time to DRY thoroughly, sometimes two or three days when the humidity runs high, though that time is shortened if you set the stock outside for five to eight hours when it is warm.

GI Springfield, Garand and M14 stocks; they only sanded to 150 grit as the finest sanding, though whatever grit you use as the final sanding is what you need to sand the surface of the wood after the Tru Oil dries.  Get ALL the saw dust off by vacuuming or careful wiping. 

I have used Lincoln leather dye and it is good stuff, but most often I use Fiebing’s Medium Brown leather dye as it has a nice light touch of red in it.  When there is a real difference in the natural color of the handguard/s and stock, I sometimes add some alchohol to the dye in little batches to give me little pots of varying shades of the same dye.  Then it is easier to get the different pieces of wood to match with the dye/stain.  (The old references to “spirit stains” just means they used alchohol as the solvent/carrier, so Leather dye is a “spirit stain.”)  The idea is to stain the darkest wood piece with the lightest batch of stain and then build up color on the other pieces to match. 

You use the dye as a “wiping stain” and wipe it off with a wad of paper towels after you apply it.  You add more coats of the stain to deepen the color or to match other wood pieces.  If you get one piece too dark, a little alchohol or Aectone on a wad of paper towels and SQUEESHED out so the paper towel wad is only dampened, is what you use to lightly wipe off the excess stain.  Now of course you don’t run into this problem of matching more than one piece of wood on Longrifle stocks as the stock is usually one piece.  However, if you use a wood sliding patch box and particularly if it is not cut from the same blank as the stock, this is handy to know. 

After you think you have the color where you want it, let it dry for four or five hours.  THEN rub the dickens out of the stained wood with a terrycloth towel.  THEN take the pieces outside in the sun to see if the pieces all match in color.  If not, you need to add more dye or wipe some off, allow it to thoroughly dry and rub the dickens out of it with the terrycloth towel and inspect again. 

Then apply a coat of Tru Oil, Tung Oil or whatever finish you are going to use and if you want a “G.I. finish,” then rub the oil so it doesn’t shine.  Fair Warning, this is going to take two to four days to dry thoroughly and you MUST allow it to dry thoroughly.  For a GI finish, rub the dickens of it with the terrycloth towel and it looks like and old, soft glow finish.  If you want more finish coats or higher shine, you add more thin coats of Tru Oil and make sure to lightly abrade the surface with grey or white “Scotchbrite” type pads they sell in the paint sections of hardware stores that are the equivalent abrasion to OOO or OOOO steel wool.  I DON’T recommend steel wool as it seems you always find a “steel wool hair or two” in your finish AFTER it dries.  The Scotchbrite pads don’t embed and you just wipe the wood off thoroughly after you abrade the surface and before you apply another coat of oil. 

Whenever you come to the last coat of finish, though, be sure to rub the dickens out of the wood with a terrycloth towel or rag to make the finish feel nice and smooth.
Gus