Author Topic: plain smoothbore  (Read 10612 times)

mlbrant

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plain smoothbore
« on: October 14, 2013, 03:54:57 AM »
planning on building a plain lock, stock and barrel gun.No furniture whatsoever. Maybe not even a trigger guard.--gun for a dirt poor colonial settler who cannot afford anything but bare essentials. Can anyone more knowledgeable than myself give me an idea on how the stock on this type of gun would have been finished. Since it would have been the very basic maybe jst boiled linseed oil and not stain or perhaps the gun would have no stock finish? Would the barrel and lock have been browned or left bright? thanks for the help and advice!! ???

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2013, 04:05:51 AM »
I think a guard would have been essential, even for the poorest dirt farmer.

Repurpose a drawer pull or a door handle.

Finish with bacon fat for a gun that smells kinda bad on a hot day...
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Offline JDK

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013, 04:07:02 AM »
...Can anyone more knowledgeable than myself give me an idea on how the stock on this type of gun would have been finished...

Since I seriously doubt a gun was ever built as you're describing, I doubt an answer could be gotten on finish.  Even the lowliest guns had simple strap trigger guards.

All that said, finish was cheap, made from common stuff, so I would think it would have something on it....to protect it as best it could, at least.

As to bright or brown, either required labor.....so?  Your call.   Enjoy, J.D.
J.D. Kerstetter

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013, 04:33:36 AM »
I agree that it is unlikely such a gu ever existed.  No trigger guard is a great risk.  To quote mike brooks "even trade guns had butt plates"  if a poor colonial settler was trying to cut  costs that would be in the finish not hardware.

Coryjoe

Micah2

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 04:59:37 AM »
In response to your post, a gun that might suit your idea would be better researched under the followoing terms.  Barn Gun, Schimmel, Poor Boy, Type G, or Trade Gun. Try some searches on each. 

whetrock

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 05:49:07 AM »
I agree that it is unlikely such a gu ever existed.  No trigger guard is a great risk.  To quote mike brooks "even trade guns had butt plates"  if a poor colonial settler was trying to cut  costs that would be in the finish not hardware.

Coryjoe

Echo coryjoe.
Keep the trigger guard. Skip the oiled finish if you want, but don't skip the trigger guard.

As for your question about how to finish, here's a link to a 1968 H House poorboy that may give you some ideas, including some ideas about a simple trigger guard.
(The white thing on the butt is a piece of bone, used as a wear plate of sorts.)
(Ignore the silver band on the muzzle. That's something someone added later just to help deal with a crack.)

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/06/hershel-c-house-southern-mountain-rifle.html

click on the photos on that webpage if you want to see enlarged views.
You can save the images by right clicking on them and selecting "save picture as", etc.


« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 05:47:48 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Dogshirt

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 06:12:10 AM »
I would deem a TG as ESSENTIAL! It's not called a trigger GUARD for no reason.

whetrock

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 07:21:14 AM »
Since it would have been the very basic maybe jst boiled linseed oil and not stain or perhaps the gun would have no stock finish? Would the barrel and lock have been browned or left bright?

mlbrant,
I think you will have sensed by now that the guys on here think a TG is pretty essential hardware.

Surviving examples of simple rifles (such as the Appalachian poorboys) generally seem to have had some colorant added to the wood (either Aqua Fortis or at least something simple, such as walnut hull stain, or turpentine and tar), and most if not all seem to have been treated at least once sometime along with way some kind of oil. (To neglect this runs a risk of the stock being damaged and warped by water.)

As for the metal, even a simple gun left in the white will rust, and will rust quickly if used in bad weather and not cleaned carefully and oiled carefully after each use. That is to say that even guns left in the white will eventually take on a mottled mixture of brown and grey over time.

The main issue then about finish (and what Coryjoe is referring to, I believe) is not just in whether or not a stain is applied or whether or not an oil is applied, but rather in how finely, that is how smoothly the surfaces are prepared. A simple “poorboy” type gun (barn gun, etc) such as you have in mind would have probably had scraper marks left on the wood, for example. The barrel would likely have been draw filed (which was often part of the manufacturing process) , but not polished bright. Likely to have a few hammer marks left in it from forging (assuming an old hand-forged barrel here).

The lock would likely have been installed “as is,” with the finish that came on it as it was delivered (from England or Germany, depending on region being represented), without being polished. What would that mean? Open for interpretation. For example, a cheap lock (which is what you would expect on such a piece) might be darkened by having been case hardened (so as to turn the iron to steel), but would not necessarily show much if any polish (beyond what might be necessary for fitting the hardened pieces back together). (Others on here may have a better informed opinion on this particular element than I do.)

Overall, it would be simple. Very simple. But not necessarily crude. You need to keep in mind that even the simple firearms were usually built by smiths. They knew their job. They chose what they would do and what they wouldn’t, depending on what the customer was prepared to pay. But they did not generally neglect function.  For example, on even the simplest mountain rifles (Appalachian poor boys) the barrel was usually rifled to precision and the muzzles were expertly finished, and the sights were well designed. And they sometimes had precisely made set triggers, for example, even if they had no butt plate, no muzzle cap, and only a simple bent-strap trigger guard. The goal was FUNCTION. So they would forgo details of finish, but not function.

You can go with a simple finish. But you do not want to forgo function. (Thus all this concern about the Trigger Guard!) If you take a careful look at the Hershel House poorboy in the link I posted above, you will see what I mean. Simple, unrefined finish, but good attention to function.

I hope this helps give answer to your original question.
Whet
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 07:38:51 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

whetrock

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 07:47:16 AM »
see the first rifle in this thread:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=5730.0

The front sight is missing, but (I think) you can just see the notch for it on the top flat between the two pin holes. Rear sight is present. If I'm not mistaken, there is a dark blue hue to the lock plate. (Granted, this one is a later period gun, but I think it is still a useful study if we are talking general principles.)

(big picture files in there. If the photos don't load correctly, try backing out of it and then reopening the link.)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 08:13:00 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 03:35:59 PM »
 There are instances in magazines, and books, where mention has been made of basic barn guns that had nothing but the essential to make it shoot. A close friend of mine, built a Bedford style barn gun, that had nothing but a big square nail in the heal of the stock to take the wear of being placed on the ground for loading. It also had no triggerguard. The trigger, was configure like the rear trigger on a Jaeger set trigger, running very close to the wrist. I required being squeezed rather than being pulled, making snagging it less likely. It works fine, is nearly as safe as a regular trigger with a guard, and has served its owner very well, for many years. He even took it hunting in Oregon, and killed a nice fat deer with it. His metal parts have been heated and linseed oiled, turning them black. The stock is linseed oil, and bees wax, over aqua fortis.

                        Hungry Horse

Offline Long John

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 03:54:06 PM »
mlbrant,

First you have to define your time period.  What would have been available would vary enormously with time period.

During colonial times the country was awash with cheap trade guns, shipped over by the French, British and Dutch.  A gun stocker would not be hard pressed to find bits and pieces from worn-out or broken guns to build a complete rifle.  Also, during colonial times there was still considerable European culture regarding the trades.  A gunsmith was judged by his work and would be reluctant to make something you describe.  Also, what distinguished the common plow-boy from a craftsman were knowledge and tools.  The average farmer would have niether.

Once you get into the post 1800 time frame the "barn gun", shimmel, etc. appear.  Chuck Dixon has a hypthesis of incremental construction.  But the culture of that time period was different, much more egalitarian, and tools might have been diffused to a larger segment of society.  Furthermore, the old trade guns were worn-out, lost, etc. so there might have been an opportunity for a scratch-built gun.

A gun without a TG was most probably one with a broken TG.  Stain was easy to make with rotten apples and some iron scraps.  Browning can be done with vinegar and salt, vinegar and sea water or urine.

Best Regards,

JMC

Offline rich pierce

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 04:29:47 PM »
The time to stock a gun is valuable and the average non-gunsmith would not have the skills or tools to do it.  So most of the time any gun was going to be made by a gunsmith who then had that gun out there representing his work.  There a plenty of examples of simple strap guards etc.  The plainest guns are often early smoothbores made in New England or late flint rifles made for farmers in Pennsylvania.  All appear to have been stained and have some finish applied, likely a simple varnish applied with a brush.  There are a couple examples of buck and ball guns that were painted.  Whether or not that was done when built or later is hard to know.
Andover, Vermont

DaveP (UK)

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 04:46:50 PM »
I was thinking similar thoughts - trigger guards had been pretty standard for a couple of hundred years by the late 18thCentury. I cant see a gunsmith jeopardising his good name by selling a new gun without one. Also I have just been looking at a photo of a 17C doglock musket. The trigger guard appears to be just a strip of iron formed into a loop and fixed with an assortment of screws. Looks rough - rather like a cheap airgun - but it would certainly protect the trigger from damage - the other reason why it's there!
Similar arguments apply to finishing - if you have a stain to hand, it would be no trouble to apply, and the gun would look right as it left your premises. A wipe over with linseed oil and then leave it up to the customer to oil or wax depending on what he could get, bearing in mind that both were used for furniture care...

Offline RAT

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 05:22:28 PM »
Some great examples of plain colonial era smoothbores can be found in the books "Battle Weapons of the American Revolution" and "Flintlock Fowlers: the First Guns Made in America".
Bob

Offline little joe

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 05:35:02 PM »
Put a guard on it. Pennsylvania Gazett 1760s says ( 2 brothers were hunting and one shot the other in the back as his gun would fire from half cock and did not have a guard.)

Offline Kermit

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2013, 07:24:06 PM »
Keep in mind that a simple finish of oil or oil and (Stockholm or pine) tar needs exposure to sunlight to "kick" or harden. Good Stockholm tar was an available item used for preservation of wood and rigging on boats of the time. Rivers, inlets, bays, and the sea were the highways of the time, so it was pretty much everywhere. Besides, Stockholm tar smells SOOOOOO nice! With time it will make for a very nice dark finish that will show wear and lighter color where it gets handled and rubbed.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2013, 07:37:25 PM »
  Stockholm tar is available from American Rope and Tar on-line for around $15.00 a pint. A pint will last a long time.
                                                 Dan

grouchy

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2013, 12:48:35 AM »


Repurpose a drawer pull or a door handle
Anyone have an example of this?? Sounds interesting!! Thanks ned
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 12:49:38 AM by nedschimmel »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2013, 01:27:00 AM »
Lil' Joe That sounds more like a lock problem than a trigger problem. Even with a trigger guard a lock that won't stay on half cock is dangerous.

                 Hungry Horse

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2013, 01:40:54 AM »


Repurpose a drawer pull or a door handle


I made that up. But if I'd lost the guard off my gun, I'd paw around the house for something to put back on the gun.
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2013, 01:50:11 AM »
Or how about a big staple, with pointed ends that go into the stock, and get peened over on the top of the wrist? It will never get lost again, dang nabbit.

Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 01:57:20 AM »
I wouldn't hesitate to build "me" a gun with out a trigger guard, if I blow my head off it's my fault. Of course I don't worry much about anything. If you choose to use a strap guard, nail it on with home made nails. I'd not stain, and just use shelac or varnish, quickly applied. Paint would be a great option too.... nothing garish, something brick red or there abouts, maybe brown or black. Also, don't spend  time with sand paper or fine files, just a quick scraper finish and course file finish on the metal.
 I'm getting inspired! ;D
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2013, 03:01:43 AM »
Years ago, Eric Kettenburg had a photo posted on his website, of a gun that he built for his own use. It was a plain simple large bore [ 12 gauge ?]  with scraped stock, and painted a mustard colour.  The image has stayed with me, and one day, I intend to build something similar for myself .   

Offline rich pierce

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2013, 05:58:47 AM »
There was a flint buck and ball gun from eastern PA at a museum near the old Henry gun works that was painted I with a red milk paint.  It was a complete gun if I recall but plain.  I will look for the photos.
Andover, Vermont

Offline little joe

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Re: plain smoothbore
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2013, 12:50:23 PM »
Lil' Joe That sounds more like a lock problem than a trigger problem. Even with a trigger guard a lock that won't stay on half cock is dangerous.

                 Hungry Horse
Very true, and I wondered if by guard if they ment what we call a frizzen stall which most likely would have prevented this. As to the wisdom of no guard, total disreguard to yourself and anyone around you. As to the Pennsylvania Gazette, I was quoting the news as they wrote it, and we cannot change history.