Ready to build, kit or plank?

[Scota4570]

I have been gun smithing for 35 years.  I used to be the in house stock maker for a gun shop.  I have a well equipped shop.  

I want to do a long rifle.  I like the Emmetsburg school.  My name is Armstrong so, that may be my destiny?     I have been looking at kits.  I see Tracks John Armstrong kit is not correct in several obvious details.  they are things that can't be fixed like the wrong tang shape and it is too large.  Chambers seems to make some top drawer stuff but they don't have any that appeals to me.

 Is there someone that makes top drawer quality yet leave room for the builder to duplicate the original?  I like the very late golden age rifles with lots of inlays and piercings.  I have no need to rush the build.  I see it as a thing I can work slowly over a period of years.  The carving and engraving will take practice before I attack the stock.  

My reason for going with a kit vs. total scratch build is that I can not hold and study an original.  When working from photos and having never studied the real deal, I would likely make a rifle that is not shaped right.  I need to hold it and feel it before I can make it just right.
 
 

[Scota4570]

I ran out of room on the first post.

 I all ready have the reccomended reading list.  Maybe ten of the best books and  a multi tape video serise on scratchbuilding a long rifle.  Books and videos are great but not the same as having handled real period rifles. 

[Mark Elliott]

It sounds like to me that you are as qualified as any of us to make a rifle from scratch that is at least as good as any kit.   The pre-carved stocks still have plenty of wood to be removed and you still need to know what you are supposed to end up with.   Others with more knowledge of Armstrong will have to chime in, but the ones I have seen didn't look like they were architecturally any different in the wrist, lock panels or forearm than say a Lancaster or York, at least what you can't see in a photo.   The only thing that would be a question for me would be the profile of the upper forearm, if you really want to make sure it is right.   To the best of my recollection, they were more rounded than V shaped and the lower forearms a bit higher than wide but not as extreme as a southern rifle of the same period.   It is next to impossible to deduce the upper forearm shape form a photo.  I have thought I had a good idea in the past only to find out when I had the gun in my hands that it was very different than what I thought from the photo.   However,  there are so many Armstrong's around,  any number of owners should be able to confirm some important details.  .  I am pretty certain that if you live in the mid Atlantic, you can find an Armstrong or two to examine in person.    The bottom line is,  I think you should go the blank route and just do the additional research you need to feel comfortable.   I am willing to bet that someone on this site can point you in the right direction.  

[Mark Elliott]

If you are just looking for original longrifles, in general, to examine; try to locate some in museums near you.   Usually,  you can contact the curator to make an appointment to examine the gun(s).    I have done that many times.    Also,  just ask around for someone who can introduce you to a collector that has what you want to examine.   My experience is that curators and collectors love to show off their stuff to folks who love them as much as they do.   

[Bill of the 45th]

As Mark said as a gunstocker you have the skills.  I would give Dave Keck a call at 570-759-2053, or visit his site at www.knobmountainmuzzleloading.com.  His stocks are roughed out,but with plenty of meat to work on, and he has over a hundred profiles of originals.  There are many suppliers of barrels, locks and the other parts you would need.  That's the direction I would go, and that's my two cents worth.  By the way, welcome to the forum.  Ask away with any questions, but stay away from the Golden Meanie (inside joke)

Bill

[Scota4570]

Quick responses, thanks!  I bookmarked the link. 

I live in California.  That will change.  It pains me to have watched my home devolve into a seas of undesireable folks run by corrupt politicians.  That is another rant though.

In the meantime I am in an area that is pretty tough to find mentors and knowledgeable folks.  Gun collectors are very secerative around here.  I have one guy I can call, I will. 

[Mark Elliott]

We would love to have you here in Virginia.   It is centrally located for all the good rifles.

[Don Getz]

Scot.........wow, you have picked a dandy for your first build.   I'm not sure who makes the proper buttplate and trigger guard,
altho you might check with Reaves Goehring, a good chance that he wil have it.   I am talking parts for an Armstrong.  The
buttplate should have that steel insert in the heel, that would be a good test of your filing ability.  I would also call Dave
Keck, he might have an armstrong stock pattern........Don

[coutios]

   I took alook at Knobmountians site..... Dave has an Armstrong profile.... You should give him a call...

  Have fun
  Dave

[mountainman70]

We would love to have you here in Virginia.   It is centrally located for all the good rifles.

ditto this for West Virginia,we have a local M/L club,Centerfire club,mountains and mountain folk who still respect the old ways.'Sides,we wouldnt kid you too much about not bein from around heah!!lol.Welcome to the forum,friend.Good folks and humor here.Good luck with brother Armstrong.Dave

[cmac]

I don't know how correct it is, but Muzzleloader Builders Supply has an Armstrong rifle kit. If there was something you wanted different they will do as little or as much of the shaping and fitting as wanted.
 However, with your skills I would go with a blank, and buy the parts you will be happiest with.
 I would also do a search on this forum. Lots of good original photos, measurements, etc.

[Micah2]

I am finishing a rifle from a 9/4 piece of walnut that had some knots but I told myself it would be a practice stock for the "real thing".  I did everything with rasps, scrapers, because it was truly a practice stock for me. What turned out is a beautiful gun that suits what I wanted.  What I learned is that with the right few tools, it can be hard to mess up. Granted, I built it backwards but thats another story.   I say find  a chunk of wood and start playing with it.
This has been my first build not from a kit, I built one Chambers kit and love it.

[Thom]

 Don Gets: I am talking parts for an Armstrong.  The
buttplate should have that steel insert in the heel, that would be a good test of your filing ability.

Do we know how and why Armstrong used this Steel insert. Years ago Larry Gardner told me no.

Thom

[Paddlefoot]

Welcome soon to be refugee from the golden toilet. I went to TN from CA and love it so far. As others have said, with your skills, start from a blank. I thoroughly believe you will find it less problematic. You may have already checked out the library/gallery, but if not, that's a must. You will find that some of our members have been hands on with a lot of these guns and can answer lots of questions if you ask the right one. One thing I might suggest is just don't stress too much on the first one. Maybe find a particular gun that's not so highly carved and decorated but is similar to what you want to end up with. Im sure all of Armstrong's guns weren't super fancy. The thing is, you will get more out of building a simple one at a reasonable pace, than sweating over perfection on the first build. you will come up with a lot of little ways to make things easier and neater by the time you finish the first one. Happy building.

[Dphariss]

I have been gun smithing for 35 years.  I used to be the in house stock maker for a gun shop.  I have a well equipped shop.  

I want to do a long rifle.  I like the Emmetsburg school.  My name is Armstrong so, that may be my destiny?     I have been looking at kits.  I see Tracks John Armstrong kit is not correct in several obvious details.  they are things that can't be fixed like the wrong tang shape and it is too large.  Chambers seems to make some top drawer stuff but they don't have any that appeals to me.

 Is there someone that makes top drawer quality yet leave room for the builder to duplicate the original?  I like the very late golden age rifles with lots of inlays and piercings.  I have no need to rush the build.  I see it as a thing I can work slowly over a period of years.  The carving and engraving will take practice before I attack the stock.  

My reason for going with a kit vs. total scratch build is that I can not hold and study an original.  When working from photos and having never studied the real deal, I would likely make a rifle that is not shaped right.  I need to hold it and feel it before I can make it just right.
 
 

Knob mountain muzzleloading dot com has at least one precarved buttock they call an Armstrong. Call/email them and see what the details and origins of the pattern are.
Look carefully at the buttplates to use etc and do your homework if you want a real Armstrong. I am planning one but its a couple of projects away right now.
If you have a scanner and good photos you can scan them in and enlarge them to actual size and use them for a pattern and it may help with details.

Dan

[WadePatton]

Knob Mtn has at least two Armstrongs, and I didn't go all the way through the Fred Miller selections. 

Yes, the iron in the buttplate is one of my favorite Armstrong features.  Must have.

[Dphariss]

If you don't have them....
Lynton McKenzie's videos on engraving are great.
Wallace Guslers carving video is also useful.

The primary thing is knowing how much wood NOT to leave on the rifle.   And knowing how to make the lines and curves meet and flow together.

Dan

[Ron Scott]

If you are up for a road trip, consider attending the ORegon Gun Makers Fair in the spring. Each session offers a series of demonstrations on Flintlock construction and decoration. I do occasional workshops in Medford Or. What part of Ca do you reside? I may know of a builder in your area.

Ron

[Scota4570]

Central coast, near Monterey. 

I did some research with my gunsmithing mentor yesterday.  There is one person who we both know that can help.  I had forgotten about him.  Have not seen him in 20-years.  He has built several long rifles.  He is a back woods, off the grid type, like Hershel House.  I am planning a visit. 

[bama]

There are a couple of great Armstrong rifles up for auction on the James Julia site right now, the pictures are awesome you may want to take a look for reference.

I am not 100% positive but I think the iron heel of the butt plate is dovetailed into the brass butt plate. It may be reinforced with silver solder or it could be studded from the inside though the butt plate.

Unless you are going to build a early Armstrong like the have up for auction which does not have the iron heel I would think that the Iron heel would be a must.

There is a plain smooth rifle by Armstrong that may not have the iron heel, and I am not sure of that, but the rest I have seen have this feature.

Go from a blank you will be much happier in the end. If you are worried about inletting the barrel and drilling the RR hole then have one of the guys on the board do that for you. I think you would have no problem with doing that work either, you would just need to get a RR hole drill bit which are available.

Armstrong rifles are among of the best designed and gracefull rifles ever built. If you ever get the chance to handle one you will understand what I am talking about.

Another thing Armstrong forged most of his own locks. There is not a commerical lock available that I am aware of that is a good match. His locks were rather dainty slender things. I have a lock plate that was cast from a very nice Armstrong lock and hopefully one day I get to build it into a working lock.

You may be able to use the internals from a small Siler and make your own lock plate, pan, frizen and cock.

An Armstrong rifle is a pretty tall order for a first rifle but we all have to start somewhere and I like a guy that wants to start with one of the best.

You may want to give Louie Parker a call and talk to him. Louie did a restock of all original Armstrong parts and if he did not tell you it was retocked by him you would not know it from Armstrongs work. Louie can tell you for sure how the iron heel was done.

Good luck with your build.

[galamb]

Grab a copy of "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" by Peter Alexander (in print again - revised edition).

He features a half dozen rifles throughout the book as he (instructs) how to build every aspect of the rifles. It includes every measurement you would need to build an Armstrong (the "silver" Armstrong is featured in the book) and he really does "walk you through" a build from scratch.

I met Peter at a gunshow a few months back and he handed me his latest build of the silver Armstrong (he donates one to the Masons every couple of years to raffle off) and to say the rifle is gorgeous really doesn't do it justice.

And yes, the steel/iron piece is dovetailed into the butt plate, plus, Armstrong used a funky patchbox release on some of his rifles - the mechanics of which are also detailed in the book (along with a few other "non-standard" releases)..

Mr. Alexander is quite opinionated on some matters, and it does come through in his book, but I really do agree with his opinion on Armstrong rifles - "anybody who thinks you can't make a beautiful rifle with a "straight" barrel, has never seen a John Armstrong"..

[whetrock]

Scot.........wow, you have picked a dandy for your first build.  ... The
buttplate should have that steel insert in the heel, that would be a good test of your filing ability.  .......Don

Here's a link that shows images of a fine Armstrong currently for sale (or it was for sale this last weekend). The first image shows the iron insert in the butt piece. (A notice about this sale already appeared in the Collecting page on this forum.)
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/10/work-by-john-armstrong-at-james-julia.html

Here's another link. This one doesn't show the iron insert, but it's really cool nevertheless! (Put your mouse on the image, hold down the button, then move the mouse to the left or right. The image will rotate.)
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/view_lot_360.asp?lot=2345-346

[GANGGREEN]

Not to hijack the thread but I'm curious about the Armstrong rifle too because they seem so dainty and well balanced.  I have two questions, first of all, of the commercial locks available, what would be the most appropriate for a .45 or .50 caliber Armstrong build.

Secondly (and I'm reasonably sure I know the answer to this and that it will be a resounding NO), did Armstrong or any of his apprentices ever build halfstock rifles of the same general design?

[bgf]

Don't some of the Armstrong rifles use tapered (as opposed to straight or swamped) barrels?  This is from Kentucky Rifles and Pistols, which isn't always comprehensive, but it seems like a tapered barrel would really help with getting a light rifle and a gracile fore-end with a more conventional buttstock architecture, and it might also lead to some interesting minor variations in construction from the norm.

[louieparker]

A word about the steel on the butt plate . It's not dovetailed in.  It's a piece of metal in a shape that's far  more complicate than a square piece of metal cut with a dovetail. Looking at it from the top down, it forms a slight V, with a 7/32x1/8 square protrusion in the center of the V to prevent rotation (?) like a locking key that goes from top to bottom. The legs of the V point toward the muzzle.  Then there is a 1/4 inch round stud on the back side that goes through the butt plate.  This is braded on the back side and silver soldered. Looking down from the top you can clearly see the V shape, its not straight across. From  the bottom its more straight.
Hope you can get some idea of what I am trying to describe..  I have never been accused of being gifted with words .....Louie