it's happening! acetic acid/iron, or vinegaroon

[Captchee]

The only comment I can add is concerning the grey  stain  on maple .
 I can tell you with very recent experience that  the grey  depending on the wood , will not hold fast .  What ends up happening is it  holds in the open pours while laying just on the surface of the tighter  areas . Then when you go to oil ,  those areas wipe off and you end up  with the color of the original wood showing .
 IMO what you end up with is more of a wash then an actual stain .
 I would agree with Acer about Dyes . But on the grey rifle I just finished I ended up mixing a black dye with a white wash in order to get  the grey color .. It still however would not penetrate the  harder areas well  and acted nothing like the  deeper reds and brown stain or dyes . Defiantly nothing like fortis either

[LRB]

  One thing not yet mentioned is that vinegaroon relies on reaction with tannens for color. On leather I use a strong tea application before the vinegaroon, and get a deeper, faster, and richer result. I give credit to Chuck Burrows for that tip. Try that and see what you get.

[Hungry Horse]

LRB;

  If what you say is true, couldn't you add tannic acid to the solution before application? Oak bark, and acorns, is a good source for the raw material.

                   Hungry Horse

[Acer Saccharum]

Some maple is so dense, water will bead up on it. Might be trace oils from handling during the build.

Wipe the whole stock with acetone or 'Kleenwoode' before trying to stain with vinegar or AF.

[WadePatton]

LRB;

  If what you say is true, couldn't you add tannic acid to the solution before application? Oak bark, and acorns, is a good source for the raw material.

                   Hungry Horse

I suppose you could but then more things are going on in the solution which may not make it happen in the wood.  Try and see.

The best color I've gotten from AF so far was on pre-treated wood. I've yet to try tannic boosters with iron acetate.  For that matter you can buy tannic acid powder from the chemical houses, but i much prefer to use commonly available regular stuff (CARS) like tea or red wine or bark tea-as in bark tanning.  So far i've only used a little wine.

I had some "early" gray (not to be confused with Earl Grey, but the solution was about 2 weeks old) making Iron Acetate stain turn the wood gray and then fade to the color of yesterday's mustard.  Nothing like that since the solution made it to 3 weeks old.

It might be easy to get too much tannin into the wood, and then it's going to turn black--just like oak-tanned leather when you hit it with IAS/AF.  Also, the natural tannin/mineral content of each tree will be different.  Cutting timber from my place, one tree will show heavy mineralization and the next one won't.  No idea why.


I suggest rubbing the surface back a little, even flushing with water-such that you SEE what will be left, before you start with oil finishing.  but i am a rank rookie with regard to wood finishing

[WadePatton]

  One thing not yet mentioned is that vinegaroon relies on reaction with tannens for color. On leather I use a strong tea application before the vinegaroon, and get a deeper, faster, and richer result. I give credit to Chuck Burrows for that tip. Try that and see what you get.

you aren't using bark-tanned leather for sure!

[Acer Saccharum]

Iron/vinegar will turn leather black. It's called 'vinegaroon' I believe, in the trade. Maybe because of the tannins in the leather it turns black?

[WadePatton]

Only on bark or "vegetable" tanned leather as I unnerstand it.  See that's why fellow quoted above is "supplementing" the leather with tannins added later.  But I'm no (al)chemist.

Maybe the chemical "tans" add tannin too.  we're straying. 

[LRB]

  Yes, I'm using vege tanned leather. I have no idea what vinegaroon might do with wood. I do know that the tea enriches the process in leather. I also know that heat does not seem to affect it in leather.

[Acer Saccharum]

we're straying.

On the contrary, we are completely lost.

[Chuck Burrows]

LRB;

  If what you say is true, couldn't you add tannic acid to the solution before application? Oak bark, and acorns, is a good source for the raw material.

                   Hungry Horse

Yes and it will definitely add to the contrast on maple......

FWIW - vinegar black  or AF is techinically not a stain but rather a chemical reagent - look it up...

[WadePatton]

LRB;

  If what you say is true, couldn't you add tannic acid to the solution before application? Oak bark, and acorns, is a good source for the raw material.

                   Hungry Horse

Yes and it will definitely add to the contrast on maple......

FWIW - vinegar black  or AF is techinically not a stain but rather a chemical reagent - look it up...

asobalutely.  

that's what makes the results variable to the wood and nearly as importantly makes it non-fade-mental.  

"stain" is shorter to say and spell than "solution"...wait how's this:

"acetic reagent"  or "AR". 

yeah, that'll work. 

[wilkie]

Hey Wade, try wrapping some heavy string or cord dampened, not wet, with white vinegar only and let dry and see if it produces a stripe effect.  You might wet the cord with white vinegar and wring it out so it is damp then wrap it around the stained wood.

[Captchee]

WOW , really ? You mean oils from your hand can inhibit color,,, in  going on 40 years of gun work  you think I might know that ? , who would have thunk it
 
 Its one of the issues with grey  stains . The color just doesn’t hold fast  like other colors do .  So what ends up happening is you   lay a color , then suspend the  color OR you be very careful not to disrupt the color in the finishing process .
 Its one of the reasons  that instrument makers open the pours  and  use multiple layers of colors  in order to get an even grey  .  Not to mention  many time using a  very dark base color prior  so as to create a very visible contrast making the  natural wood color less noticeable against the grey 
   Its also  why modern  laminated stock makers ,  penetrate their grey  colors through a vacuum  process  so as to pull the color into the wood .

 Take a look again at  Wades test board , you will see the natural color  of the maple  creeping through the color  in the center  . But not so on the left and only marginally, at this point   on the right  .
That color   difference will increase thought he finishing process   when dealing with grey  on maple . .   Has nothing to do with oils from your hands …. it’s the nature of the color  and as others have said , the tannins in the wood  itself . Its not a “Must be ?” 
 But then ha , what the “bleep” do I know .

 Wade .
  Think about what your seeing happen with your mix .
As you let it set , the color changes . the reason it changes is that  the partials within the solution are continuing to  dissolve further and further . The longer it sets , the more brown red it should get  tell such time as there is no more Iron content  to dissolve or particle reaction .
 The color on the left of the sample board  shows good  penetration because the color itself is made up of  particles that are small enough to  go deep into the wood   pours . While the two on the right are still  at the point that  they are  easily filling the more open pours  while at the same time  not working as well on the more closed pours .

 Those closed pours , regardless   of the stain , dye , regent .. Will never hold as much color as the open pours . Thus you will still get definition of figure .

 While I know this is probably way of topic , this is the basic process I use on figured maple  stocks . I change it a little  by using alcohol vs. water based dyes  and oils vs shellacs  but the color  and figure  enhancements  come out the same . You just have to work faster  being sure to keep the wood wet 

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/how-to-create-a-sunburst-finish.aspx

[WadePatton]

I don't know about all that.  The middle stripe finished out like the rest, at four coats, rubbed between all but first two, then oiled.  Got really dark-black gray with zero red/brown. 

I've already mixed the two red/brown producers together and added more vinegar to the gray/black producer. 

As to string theory- heck, i got stripes.  But the problem i see is re-applications or re-wetting/re-wrapping without losing definition.  OR maybe that's how you produce the cat's meow of trade-gun striping. 

[Captchee]

at this point you should have a dark grey black wade .
 how should i put this ??
 what i have found is that depending on your  metal and  amount of acidic mix , depends on how fast the acid breaks down the material ..
also not all white  vinegars are the same  in PH  so they will react differently .
  some will react very quick and others will petter out  with seemingly very little effect  and need  repeated  additions to  continue the reaction.
 i have also found that  the metal also has an effect . some take higher acidic levels while  using iron normally doesn’t  take much .
 
 however  what’s happening is the acid breaks the metal down to a given point . IE dissolves it .
 but know that just because the metal is dissolved ,  to  the point  it doesn’t look like its there , doesn’t mean its dissolved to the smallest point it can Be .

so with your test batches , what your seeing is that transition . grays being larger particulate and the reds being even smaller . You can actually go so far that the  amount of iron and oxides within the mix is so high that it can be reduced and used as a regent .
 But when the  mix stops or you hold it at the grey level , what I have found happens is that while the color sets in the softer more open wood , it doesn’t hold well in the  harder more dense areas .. At first it looks like it does but  as soon as you wipe it down and it dries ,  you suddenly begin to see  grain that’s  light tan  to honey color or  even browns.
 Now if that’s the result one is looking for , Ha , 2 thumbs up . But if your looking for the more even  colors with  darker figure , the only way I have found to produce that is to suspend the color  or add an additional wash . But with the wash you have to be very careful  when finishing or you can easily rub the color back while applying the oil
 Maybe im not  wording this right  so here is some photos of my own tests .
 This mix was using distilled white vinegar from  Delmonti.
 The chosen metal was  steel wool turned on my mill from an old Iron tractor    disc control shaft .
 These are progression photos taken over 4 days


 this was day 3 . not the brown area wher i tried my heat gun


 now this was my final test  to achieve a grey


 Do you see the  brown tans I was talking about ?
 its the grain and figure that amost the very same color as the original maple . IE the color is grainy  to me .
  For me , and what I was being ask to do , that is un acceptable as I know that the oils will  only magnify  that lighter grain  where the color would not take
 This was , for better or worse , what I was being ask to do .  But I was not able to achieve it by the above  application , I had to do it as I state din my first post .


 Now all isn’t lost because as your mix  ages , it can produce  very good results .
  I just have had little luck with it when it comes to  grey

[WadePatton]

Thanks for playing along, but I'm not quite sure i get what you're after. 

Are you trying to lock down the gray color?  I'm satisfied that mine would have stayed gray if i'd stopped at the third coat.  If i get a gray result again, i'll try that.

I applied a blacking substance over the top of it all, and yes wound up with a black/gray and the browns.  I need to test the batches again since combining the browns and tweaking the gray.

I don't  want gray.  I'm a red/brown fan (Red Green's cousin). 

hmph, where are my final results pics?  ... tune in later this eve.  I have a suppa and a shop calling me.

[Captchee]

good evening wade .
 my posts were only concerning the grey . nothing else . i havent had an issue with the darker reds and browns  producing anywhere near what was happening with the grey . now maybe that becouse i  heat them like i do with Fortis .
but i dont think so . i think its probably more  to do with the actual break down of the irons in the mix

[Mike Krall]

Some maple is so dense, water will bead up on it. Might be trace oils from handling during the build.

Wipe the whole stock with acetone or 'Kleenwoode' before trying to stain with vinegar or AF.

Tom... is the "Kleenwoode" oxalic acid (like used to clean leather prior to finishing)?

Mike

[Rich]

My experience with vinegaroon happened when I threw a bunch of needle files in a jar of vinegar in the hope of sharpening them. It worked pretty well. The liquid first gave a grey color when used on maple. I let it age (no files in it) and it  reacted with the maple with a little heat. Great color and now several years later the stock color is unchanged. The liquid not used continued to age and turned a very nice red color. The color however would not transfer to the wood, it just created a muddy color.  My conclusion is the liquid is unstable and hits a peak time to use it. Once used, the color is fast.  The liquid itself however deteriorates to unusable.

[Acer Saccharum]

I suspect the vinegar stain has a short 'window' of optimal color. On either side of that it's just gray.

Below is my limited understanding of vinegar stain.

John Cholin, who gets good color from his vinegar stain, says he puts fresh vinegar into the liquid before using. This might be because the acetic acid evaporates before water does. So you might have liquid stain, but it could be just water and iron. But you need acid to bond the iron to the wood. (this is in my very limited-non-chemist-magic understanding)

Don't use the mud at the bottom. Mix in some fresh vinegar, allow to settle, and pour off some clear liquid into another container. Try that on a scrap. If it's gray, try another application of stain. If it's still gray, then wait a day for the stain to age, or settle, before trying a new piece. Try another sample. Once you get good color, then NOW is the time to stain the gun. Waiting just lets more acid evaporate, and you're back to water and iron.

You don't need heat to 'blush ' the stain, because acetic acid evaporates at room temp. Heat will help wood dry faster, so a second app can be done in short order.

Aqua Fortis needs heat, because the nitric acid has a much higher vapor pressure, and needs the heat to evaporate, and thus iron molecules bonding to the water molecules in the wood.

Don't quote me on the above. What I didn't understand, I made up.

[Majorjoel]

   Good summary there Tom! I always keep the old solution till late summertime and pickle my zucchini with it.

[Rolf]

These six pistols were stained with the same batch of vinegaroon. The batch was about 6 mounths old when used onthe  silver kenktuckys and
2-2.5 years old when used on the long barreled pistols. Aging does not seem to be a problem. Wood from the same plank gives the same color.
Wood from different trees give different colors. Adding vinegar and waiting a couple of days increases reddish tones, but the main infuence on color is the wood itself. Three trees , two pistols from each, each tree a different color.

Best regards
Rolf