Author Topic: What gun??  (Read 4828 times)

Riku

  • Guest
What gun??
« on: January 19, 2009, 03:00:45 PM »
Hello! Found this watercolor work by James Peachey from c.1780
The indians might be Abenaki around Quebec but what I'm interested in are those two guns in the pic. Anybody got any idea what kind of models they are. French trade guns c or d, chiefs grade trade gun!?!?!

Riku

« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 03:09:22 PM by Riku »

doug

  • Guest
Re: What gun??
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 09:01:24 PM »
      to me they look like english fowlers but their appearance may simply reflect the painter's personal preference and background rather than what the indians were actually carrying.

cheers Doug

Offline Dave B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3132
Re: What gun??
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2009, 08:30:25 PM »
I would expect that they should be of French manufacture but the butt stock is looking like that of  English manufacture. Whims of the artist tend to leave out some details on occasian. Though most seem to want to be faithful to details for the most part. I would agree with Doug on this one.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline G-Man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: What gun??
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 09:16:04 PM »
As pointed out in the above post, it was common for artists to do rough sketches and then finish them in the studio with props so it is not certain if the guns they are depicted as carrying are really what they had.  And it wouldn't surprise me if the same one gun was used as the prop for both pieces depicted in the engraving.  But they do look like some English trade guns or trade fowlers of that period to me. Quebec fell to the English in 1759 so by 1780 English trade items would have dominated. Someone more familiar with Native dress might be able to tell us more about what tribe they might be from, but there could be many possibilities, including Mohawk and other Iroquois.

The guns sort of look like some of the early forerunners of what became the common Northwest gun by around 1790.  There are a few examples of English trade guns out there from around the time of the Revolution, ca: 1770s-80s, that basically have the straight lines of the NW guns, some with serpent sideplates, etc., but have the fancier fowler style mounts - acorn finial guard and stepped finial brass buttplate, instead of the simple sheet brass nailed buttplate and sheet iron guard which became pretty ubiquitous on the common NW guns later on.  An example in Neumanns "Weapons of the American Revolution" comes to mind, and I remember seeing one  in Jim Dresslar's collection back when he had his museum in Nashville Indiana.  I think there might be an example by Wilson in one of the "Accoutrements" books as well. 

If you trust the paintings, you'll note the wood cut back at the muzzles - which also suggests the possibility of an English officer's fusil - which were typically cut back to allow a bayonet.  In the 1770-80s there is a lot of commonality in the basic lines and mounts for better Native trade guns, common trade fowlers, and officer's guns - they were all being made by the same makers in many cases. 

Guy

« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 09:28:54 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline tom patton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 461
Re: What gun??
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 10:48:17 PM »
This painting was done by James Peachey {active 1774-1797},who was a Military artist holding a commission in the King's service.On October 3,1787 He was commissioned an Ensign in the 60th Regiment of foot. He was promoted to Lieutenant on October 21,1793. He died in 1797 while stationed at Martinique.He was, along with James Davies, active in the topographical genre  which was popular in the late 18th century.Note that the painting in question was signed by him as "Ensign 60th regt,"so that it had to have been painted between October 3,1787 and October 21,1793. The painting is very reminiscent of the doll sets{some in canoes} made as souvenirs by the Montreal nuns. The guns probably represent English fowlers. Although the guards are purely examples of artistic license as to their form note the rammer pipes which have the familiar ribbed design found only on English guns.Jim Gooding in "Trade Guns of the Hudson's bay Company 1670-1870"P.56 shows a very early English trade gun by Richard Wilson dated 1751. which has the refined architectural treatment shown on the Peachey guns. One student has suggested them to be "Montreal Traders' guns but I'm not familiar with such terminology.There was nothing to prevent indidual merchants in Montreal from importing guns for private sale or trade to both Natives and Whites alike. The estate inventory of York County trader Thomas Hancock of York County,Va. taken Ca.1732-1740 shows 40 "Carolina guns" valued at 22 pounds 10 shillings for the lot.{Gill 1974,P.4}and he was an individual trader.

My gut feeling is that these two guns represent English fowlers ,possibly  owned by him or other officers   and that Peachey took artistic license. especially with the guards.They don't really match up with any known trade gun types but are definitely English of the mid to late 18th century.

As always I welcome responsible opposing comment.
Tom Patton

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: What gun??
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2009, 04:50:27 PM »
By 1780 and in that area they are more than likely North West guns.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?