Building my first: A Lyman Great Plains Rifle 54cal Flintlock

[BigJ]

Heh thanks for the kudos on the pics, but they're not deserved.  The camera is doin all the work

Progress report:  I've finished up the file work on the barrel, and started on inletting it into the stock.  Or, I should say, fitting in there.  I haven't started cutting anything because I noticed a couple things:



The face of the lock pate is already sunk below the surface of the wood and seems to fit nice and snug up into its cavity.  And, for the most part, the plate's edges line up quite nicely with the precut recess.  All except for ^^ that spot ^^ in the upper front.  Looks like there's going to be a sizable gap between the plate edge and wood right there.  Any suggestions on how to fix that?  Or best just to move on?

Also while fitting and prepping to inlet the barrel into the channel, the manual is talking about ensuring a "bolster" lines up with the lock's semi circular cutout for it.  I've looked at the parts list and can't find a bolster, and honestly I don't know what they're talking about.  Here are the parts and how they all fit currently fit (before any inletting).  Would an expert mind pointing me in the right direction?







Thanks!

[bgf]

Not an expert, but what they mean by bolster in that case is "drum" (i.e. for a percussion lock).  Since you have a flintlock, just make sure the flash hole and pan are lined up like you want (see below).

One way to address the gap in the lock mortise is to glue slivers in the gap and press them in with the lock; pre-staining the slivers dark to better match your finish is better (since glue doesn't usually stain so well), so you may want to wait until a little later.  Others may have better ideas.  Also, In your case, it looks like from the picture of the flash hole that the lock might best come forward a little, which would leave a smaller gap front and back of the lock, needing less patching/gap filling.  Are the lock screws in?  That will determine where the lock sits precisely.

[Keb]

the manual is talking about ensuring a "bolster" lines up with the lock's semi circular cutout for it

It does sound like it's referring to a drum & nipple set up but I think this picture shows your bolster is lined up with the cut out proper.

[bgf]

Keb,
From the picture, doesn't it look like the flash hole is a little bit forward of center of pan to you (it does to me)?  Definitely functional as is, but if the lock screw(s) put the lock a little farther forward, it would better center the flash hole and perhaps eliminate or at least minimize the need for filling gaps.  That gap looks (surprisingly) large, but if it were divided in half (distributed b/t front and back of lock plate) as I suspect it would be with the screw(s) in, it might not be an issue or only require a little tweaking.

[BigJ]

Thank you gentlemen.  Good thoughts.

Regarding moving the lock foward:  the pics were taken with the lock screw bushing installed and the lock screw tight.  The barrel and tang were just set in place and its quite possible the barrel can/will slide back a fraction which would bring the touch hole right in line with the lock (bolster?). 

So (again, please realize I don't know what I'm talking about) but it would seem to me moving the lock forward is probably not an option at this point? 

Slivers to fill the gap... interesting idea.  I'll do some Googling on how to do it, but any tips would be more than welcome. 

Thanks again!

[JB2]

Make sure to get the standing breech and barrel into the correct and final position first, before you try to correct anything around the lock.  In one of you pics, it looks like a little bit of a gap between standing breech and stock.  Just make sure there's no gaps, and no potential for anything to move during recoil, in that area. 

 I made some 'slivers' using a small hand plane on a section of stock that I knew was too high.  They worked great for filling up the factory inletting around the locks on a Pedersoli 12ga.SxS.  Thought I was being soooo smart saving those slivers.  When when I glued them in, I used the lock to hold the slivers in place.  But I didn't put anything on the lockplate to release it from the glue.  Only took a light tap with a hammer to get the lock out, but the glue left a nice line of corrosion on the inside of the plate.  grrr!  less smart, I guess.

lots of tips on here about 'repairs' and 'mistakes'.  I know they aren't your 'mistakes', but same principal.  A search in the tutorials and gun building should bring up plenty.

[galamb]

My first attempt at inletting, even with some practice left more than a gap or two.

I found a pretty neat product from JB Weld called "Kwikwood". It's an epoxy stick (just like the JB weld steel and aluminum epoxy sticks) - you cut off a hunk and knead it - has the consistency of putty.

Now it is fairly light but found if I put a few drops of wood stain on it and then knead it, it held the colour well and then when stained over top it looks pretty good unless you get really close.

When it sets up it's super hard - can be filed, drilled, sanded etc.

Something to check out if you don't want to use the wood slivers.

http://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-kwikwood-1oz/

[bgf]

BigJ,
As somebody pointed out, now that I look at it, it does look like the standing breech can go back just a bit (touch hole should then be perfect with pan).  If the lock is screwed in, that is where it will be short of drastic action, so you may want to fill the gap in front of the plate after all.  Slivers or shavings are pretty standard gap fillers and you can find the techniques discussed on this board several times, but that gap looks pretty big, so give it some thought before you choose a method and go at it.    The main drawback to using slivers or shavings in my opinion is that the grain is not in line with the rest of the stock in most cases, so it is always detectable, though it may be difficult to see if done carefully.  I know it is NOT your fault -- that just makes it worse for you; I guess they got tired of people complaining about undersized inlets...  Take you time, and chalk it up as practice for when you do your first lock inlet and need to fill some gaps that ARE your fault .

As far as coloring the filler (whatever you choose), I would suggest that darker color is better than lighter for such things as far as blending in from the edge to the surrounding stain/finish.  And, your finish may fill a small gap on its own too, so you do not have to fill the gap to the point where it could hold air; in fact, you want to allow a little room before finish, otherwise you might be scraping finish out of mortise later...  The lock should be neatly inlet, but too tight can cause problems, such as removing wood when you take the lock out of a mortise that is too tight (so I've heard).  And the wood can swell and stick a lock also...

Finally, set the gap problem aside for a while and come back to it -- you don't necessarily have to address it until you are ready to finish and it is pretty much completely cosmetic.  When you are ready to work on just that, perhaps start a fresh thread on just that topic (if you still feel the need for additional help) to get new views, advice, and opinions.  Good luck.

[BigJ]

Awesome info fellas, thank you so much.  Love this forum!  (Sending in a donation imminently).

I think I will set the filling issue aside for now.  I spent some time inletting the tang and barrel today, and pretty much right away discovered the tang factory cut mortise is too large as well



(that light line along the right side of the cut is actually the light hitting the bottom of the mortise.  You can see the shadow of the tang down there too)

So it seems whatever I decide to do to fill these gaps, I'll get lots of practice at it  

A couple in process pics







I didn't get a pic of it (I will tomorrow) but after some work inletting the tang (which actually did end up moving the standing breach back just a touch) to my eye the touch hole is perfectly centered with the pan.  Good call on that guys.  

One thing I am thoroughly disappointed in with this kit is the quality of the steel they chose to use for the bolts/screws.  I'm no stranger to how to properly care for hardware; I have a full gunsmith's screwdriver set and I always take my time to chose the proper bit before applying any pressure.  But even with the right bit, the screwheads literally shaved away with every turn.   After having installed and removed them half a dozen times during inletting, they need to be replaced.  



More to come soon!

[BigJ]

Made some good progress today:
-finished up inletting the tang and barrel
-inletted the trigger group
-inletted the trigger guard











I have to say I'm really impressed with the trigger that comes with this kit.  When set, it snaps like a glass rod with zero creep and while I don't have a trigger gauge, but I'd be surprised if it measures out at more than 2lbs.  Very very nice.

One problem I ran into was with the trigger guard.  I couldn't tell by looking at it, but it turns out it was bent pretty badly; more specifically it was twisted so that when the front mount was flat in the wood, the rear was cocked at about a 2oclock position and wouldn't sit flat.  And obviously when the rear was flat, the front was kicked out to about the 10oclock position.  Here's a pic of the best I was able to do after lots of hand bending and twisting



Still not great, but close enough I suppose.  

Next up I think is the forend cap and buttplate.

[Rootsy]

Word of wisdom for future projects that have the mortises cut for parts.  Test fit and inspect all parts before you begin work.

I would have returned that gun.  

[BigJ]

Word of wisdom for future projects that have the mortises cut for parts.  Test fit and inspect all parts before you begin work.

I would have returned that gun.  

I see your point.  And I will check in the future before starting any work.  But given this is a first for me, like Jim points out this presents an excellent opportunity to get my feet wet filling in/fixing mistakes.  No regrets here.

[JB2]

The harder part is trying to not get too mad at yourself when you make your own mistakes

I've never seen a factory 'kit' that was much better, and even the "factory finished" guns have a lot of gaps filled in with "factory finish".  It's all about time at most factories, and being able to throw the parts into the inlet from across the shop floor, in the dark, is SOP.  I think most people just don't look this close, or care, and even fewer take such detailed pics! 

About the screws, I've seen mentioned here about making slot wider and deeper, and it's helped on some screws.  There seems to be lots of variation in the hardware provided, even on screws that are supposed to be the same size.

But you're not getting near enuff inletting black on...everything!  I guess that'll come when you start inletting your own plank.  And no blood anywhere?  Other than all that, your doing great with what you have.  Maybe Lyman could use this thread as a more detailed instruction booklet?

[anj4de]

One problem I ran into was with the trigger guard.  I couldn't tell by looking at it, but it turns out it was bent pretty badly; more specifically it was twisted so that when the front mount was flat in the wood, the rear was cocked at about a 2oclock position and wouldn't sit flat.  And obviously when the rear was flat, the front was kicked out to about the 10oclock position.  Here's a pic of the best I was able to do after lots of hand bending and twisting




Hi

If I wee in this position I would dump that trigger guard and replace it...there is a cheap nice on on ebay right now...that for sure would look nice together with your flint lock

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hawken-Rifle-Steel-Trigger-Guard-Muzzle-Loader-Powder-/251346108590?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item3a856540ae

cheers
Uwe

[WadePatton]

As to the guard, I was warned not to get bendy with cast pieces without heat because some are brittle and don't anneal well.  So I red-hotted my guard to get it to fit the contours of the profile we selected. (plank build).

And It's not perfectly square-which i think plays in to the fantasy of having a forged guard like the originals (and some contemps) of the school i'm pursuing.

Doing fine, slap that thing together and get shooting! Then build again.  and again...

[mountainman70]

I have a very nice,older style Hawken steel guard,with the long front and rear finials cast on.It is long enuff to cover the factory inlet sins,and I will post pics after while.if you want it,10.00 should cover postage?Keep at it.This is where you learn by doing.Dave

overall lenght 9",width of front and rear finials is 1/2"

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

There's something you can do to the tang and its inlet to greatly improve the looks of the rifle, and take care of most of the oversized inlet.  The area of the tang's inlet is a hump.  The wood comes back flat from the breech for far too long, creating a hump in the top of the wrist.  Also, Lyman in their wisdom, ground bevels on the top edges of the tang, and that only adds to the problem of a poorly fitting tang inlet.

So, here's what I did, and may I say the result is a vast improvement.  Straighten the end of the tang a little, and increase the bend right behind the breeches break-off.  This will take the humpy curve out and will require that you inlet the tang more deeply into the top of the wrist.  If you file some 'draft' onto the sides of the tang, inletting correctly is much easier.  You're only going down a little, so it helps to know what you want to achieve before you start hogging out wood.  Straightening out the tang will also take care of any gap at the end of the tang.  Now with the tang seated,file away all the wood above the tang, and also the metal until the bevels along the sides are gone.  Your inlet should now be a lot tighter without those huge gaps from the factory.

[JB2]

great advise Taylor!!  I vaguely remember seeing pics of that project before.  Are they in the archive section?

[JB2]

fownt it!  It's "GPR Rebuild".

[bgf]

Taylor's idea on the tang sounds terrific -- several birds with one stone, and based on his result I'd do what he says !

I'd also take up mountainman70 on his offer.  Inletting a triggergaurd more or less from scratch will give you a nice introduction to the process and the one he has looks good and seems like it will work pretty easily (i.e., just inlet) and cover the factory inlet.  I don't really see any downside.  Conversely, the factory guard doesn't look too bad as far as gaps (maybe a little loose at front? possibly you could peen it out from the back), but it looks like you do need to take the wood down a little, so that it isn't "sunken" (? may be just the picture).

[BigJ]

Wow!  Thank you guys!

mountainman, I'll take it!  I'll shoot you a message so we can work out details.  Very VERY cool!

Taylor, that sounds like a great idea!  And... wow... that rifle in those pics... just wow.

So, since I'm a newbie at all this, please bear with me as I ask some probably stupid questions and try to clarify some of terminology:

1) when you say to increase the bend right behind the "breech's break-off", is this where we're talking about?


2) To make the bends, apply any heat?  Or just work it cold?

3)  What does it mean to file in some "draft" into the tang?

4)  The side of the tang and the wall of the wood are parallel with one another, and the gap itself is as deep as the tang is tall.  So I'm trying to visualize how the gap will be minimized/eliminated if make this mod.  Wont I have to end up inletting the tang exact 2x as deep as it currently is since the current floor of the mortise would need to become the new top of the wrist.  If that makes sense?  What am I not understanding?  

Thank you again fellas.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Perhaps the rifle stock I had to work with had a tighter inlet than yours, but it definitely tightened up as I went into the wrist.  Draft simply means tapering the sides of the tang from perfectly straight up and down,to a very very shallow angle, smaller at the bottom than at the top.  Naturally, you don't want to remove any metal from the top edge, and in fact, you might want to cold forge the tang a little wider to help take up the gaps.  The tang will bend easily cold.  Support the octagonal part in a machinist's vise, and use a block of maple for a drift and and strike the maple with a hammer.  Don't forget to remove most of that bend that is already in the tang.  Squeezing it between brass plates in the vise will take care of it easily.  You will end up inletting more than half of the tang's thickness, especially in the centre, so that should go a long way to getting rid of the gaps.

[Kenny]

big J,
My first build was a plank, barrel, lock, trigger guard and buttplate. I followed hershels videos and made everything else. I had a bad inlet on my tang and as Mr. Sapergia say`s I cold forged it wider, filed it up, re-inlet and it worked great. it was a scary thing as the barrel was a .54 rice and big$$$$.  breech plugs aren't much tho... looking good,

KENNY

[BigJ]

Ok gotcha.  Sounds like a combo of some cold bending, and forging it out to make it wider is the ticket. 

Speaking of the latter, how exactly do you suggest I do that?  I'm picturing putting the bottom on the flat on an avil, and then striking the top with a brass hammer a handful of times making my way up and down its length.  Sound about right or is there a better technique?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think you should first determine if it is necessary to make the tang wider.  Just how big are the gaps along the sides of the tang.  It could be that re-inletting it will take care of the problem.
If not, forging the tang out is not difficult, but it will require a commitment ... once you start, you alter the tangs shape from the first blow.  You must be confident that you can return the tang to it's correct curve.  For the forging, I would use the horn of the anvil, or a large (3") piece of steel cylinder.  Use a heavy steel hammer - mine is a 4 pound sledge with a 12" long handle.  Make your blows straight down along the edge, alternating from right to left all the way down the length of the tang.  If you run down one side and then the other, you may not end up with a tang that is still straight.  Remember it is not going to take much to close the gap.  Then carefully file the tang's edges to true them up.
Another option is to glue pieces of wood into the void, file draft onto the tang, and re-inlet it.  How adventurous are you, and what is your skill level?