Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on

[Shreckmeister]

This pouch is 6" across the bottom, 7" across the top and 6" tall.  I acquired it from Ron Harris who received it
from Madison Grant in the 70s as a gift for some photography work he had done.

[gizamo]

More pics...please. 

Giz

[Shreckmeister]

Sorry Giz, Not gonna lift the 200 year old flap to show the inside cause I'm afraid what will happen.  There are
round balls in it and who knows what else but I'm not gonna risk it.  Wish I could. 

[Artificer]

Interesting decoration of a double cyma curve with point facing down, well above an inverted double curve with the point facing up on the bottom of the flap.  I could be completely wrong, but that suggests 18th century to me.  Do you have any other information on the pouch as to provenance?

Not sure what you know about leather conservation, but if it were mine, I would seek advice from museum curators on preservation of the pouch.
Gus

[Shreckmeister]

Gus,  I only know it was labeled Revolutionary War era hunting pouch.  I asked Mr. Harris why and he said
Madison Grant told him that was the period it was from.  I will seek advice from the Heinz Regional History
Museum unless someone here has knowledge of preservation to share.  The cyma curve is repeated on the
back of the pouch.

[jdm]

WHERE DID THE PICTURES GO?  I'm not getting them.

[Elnathan]

WHERE DID THE PICTURES GO?  I'm not getting them.

Neither am I. Used to be able to see one, now none. 

[Artificer]

Gus,  I only know it was labeled Revolutionary War era hunting pouch.  I asked Mr. Harris why and he said
Madison Grant told him that was the period it was from.  I will seek advice from the Heinz Regional History
Museum unless someone here has knowledge of preservation to share.  The cyma curve is repeated on the
back of the pouch.

That’s a good plan to check with the Heinz Museum and I might further suggest you check the Smithsonian Conservation techniques.  I wish I could tell you the best way to preserve the pouch, but I don’t know for certain and don’t want to steer you wrong. 

A cyma curve is a “S” shaped curve and they make the point with two cyma curves put together side by side, or when inverted and the point is upwards, you get two rounded edges as on the flap of your pouch.  The flap with a double cyma curve with the point facing down was very common on British and American Military pouches in the 18th century from at least the French and Indian war and we continued using it on U.S. Military Cartridge boxes as late as the Civil War and even some cap boxes of the Mexican War, though it was changed slightly or a lot during the Civil War for cap boxes.

What I don’t know is how common the double cyma curve with point facing downward on the flap would have been in a CIVILIAN pouch.  Madison Grant and others don’t show this as a flap style that was common for civilian pouches even in the 18th century.  There are very few original 18th century pouches around, so we will never know for sure.  We also don’t have enough period civilian drawings/engravings/portraits that show a double cyma curve with the point facing downwards to suggest it was common for civilian pouches.

I find a few things REALLY interesting about your pouch.   When they put the double cyma curve decoration on the back of the pouch as well as the front, that is really unusual.  The upside down V shape or flattened pyramid shaped top of the flap is interesting as well.  I can’t think of a reason for that other than the pouch maker’s sense of style.  I would LOVE to see some pictures of the reverse side of the pouch to see how they attached the straps.  How many stitches per inch were used to sew this pouch and was the number of stitches per inch different on the body of the pouch when compared to the top of the flap?

I have loved the style of the double cyma curve with point facing downwards on flaps since the 1960’s when I first saw them as a lad.  I have used it on my interpretation of some militia cartridge boxes and even civilian pouches I’ve made over the years, besides copies of military cartridge boxes.  My “justification” for using them on civilian pouches has always been the person for whom such a pouch flap would be made had some military experience or wanted his pouch to look “more military” and perhaps as part of the militia.  I experimented a few times with the double cyma cube and point facing upwards to give two side by side rounded edges as on the bottom of your pouch flap, though I never liked that look for my pouches.  So I find it very interesting to see an original pouch flap bottom made that way. 

Thanks for showing your pouch and PLEASE more pictures!!!!  Grin.

Gus

[Shreckmeister]

Gus,  I will get the pictures posted here later.  I'm trying to understand if you are suggesting that this
pouch may have military origin or is it a civilian pouch or are you unsure of it's origin?  If it were military
I imagine it would have been mass produced even in that era.  This discussion makes me want to open it
up and see if Madison put any notes in it, but I'll resist that urge.  Thanks for your insight on the pouch.

[Shreckmeister]

The flap stitches are 4 per inch.  I can't count the side stitches without damaging
the pouch.

[Artificer]

First allow me to apologize that I wasn’t more clear. 

On the bottom of your pouch flap, the double cyma curve is not the way it was done on military pouches.  Actually, it is opposite the way it was done on military pouches, so it can’t be concluded it was copied from a military pouch or in that “military style” of flap.  So I’m not suggesting it was done as a possible military pouch.

The double cyma curve decoration on the front and back, though, is done the way it was done on military pouches, I.E. with the point facing down.  However, it seems this is just a decoration unless there is stitching in it that I can’t see in the photograph.  MAYBE it was put there as a sort of “mirror image” (in smaller scale) of the way the bottom of the flap was cut/made, to make it more pleasing to the eye of the person who made the pouch.  I really can’t explain why it was also put on the back of the pouch, except perhaps that’s how the pouch maker wanted to decorate it. 

I find it extremely interesting that an original civilian pouch has been found with a double cyma curve flap bottom and even more interesting with a double cyma curve decoration on the front and back. 

I also find it interesting that the flap is sewn on with 4 stitches per inch.  That’s less than the stitches per inch one would normally think an 18th century Saddler or other skilled Leather Tradesman would have used.  It suggests the flap, at least, was sewn on by an amateur because the stitches look a bit more crudely made than what we would associate with a period skilled leatherworker.  The reason I asked how many stitches per inch were used to sew up the body of the pouch was to see if it was also 4 stitches per inch (like the flap sewing) OR if it was sewn with more stitches per inch and more uniform spacing.  If more stitches per inch was used on the pouch and if they looked more uniform; that would suggest the flap was a replacement or a repair done by someone else, rather than the person who made the pouch.  If the stitches in the pouch were also 4 per inch and stitched in the same manner,  that would suggest the pouch and flap were made by the same person. 

Now PLEASE don’t take my musings as criticism of your pouch as I really think you have a real GEM there!  Actually, I am a bit excited to see an original pouch with a double cyma curve on the bottom of the flap done in that fashion because it is uncommon.  I’m just interested in the construction details to see if the pouch was all “home made” or if the flap was a replacement/repair after the pouch had been made.  If the flap was a replacement/repair, that adds even more character and interest to the pouch, in my opinion. 

Gus

[Shreckmeister]

No apology necessary.  It's my lack of comprehension.  Having the pouch in hand, I would say that the
flap is original to the bag because it appears to be the same leather with the same treatment and same
aging.  The decoration shows the same aging front and back as well.  I would not rule out the chance that the flap was reattached however.  There is no way for me to see the number of stitches on the side without opening
the bag which would damage it.  Glad to share it with you.  Somewhat surprised by the lack of discussion beyond
your statements.

[Shovelbuck]

Find somebody that has a borescope. It appears you could get one into that hole in the upper left of the bag.

[jdm]

What a nice bag and a bonus coming out of Madison Grants collection. It is a pretty rare thing for a hunting pouch that early to have survived.  Thanks for posting it.

[necchi]

"When they put the double cyma curve decoration on the back of the pouch as well as the front, that is really unusual. "

Ok, could it be that the pouch was made from salvaged military pouch leather by a civilian, and the use of the double cyma curves where simple artistic expression using the only salvageable leather from said pouches?

It's not unusual to re-use good product,, in a different manner than it's original purpose.

[Artificer]

"When they put the double cyma curve decoration on the back of the pouch as well as the front, that is really unusual. "

Ok, could it be that the pouch was made from salvaged military pouch leather by a civilian, and the use of the double cyma curves where simple artistic expression using the only salvageable leather from said pouches?

It's not unusual to re-use good product,, in a different manner than it's original purpose.

Well, I don’t think it was made from a reclaimed cartridge pouch, but the leather could have come from some other item.

The double cyma curve decoration on the front and back of the pouch looks like it was traced from the same pattern.  The problem is the size of the pattern is too small to have been for the bottom of the flap on a military cartridge pouch or cartridge box.   Maybe this was the pouch maker’s distinctive marking to show he had made it? 
Gus

[Artificer]

Shreckmeister,

Since you brought the pictures back and added the rear view photo (Thank you, BTW) it brings up new questions.

Before I forget to ask, again, can you tell how thick the leather is of the flap?  I’m interested in what ounce size leather was used.  Each “ounce” is figured as 1/64” on leather so if it is 1/8 thick leather, that is 8 ounce leather, for example.  Now leather is never exactly the same thickness in a hide, so an ounce measure is the average thickness.

I missed it the first time you posted the picture and just noticed that the stitching on the top of the flap is “single sewn” or “laced sewn” instead of double sewn.  Can’t believe I missed that the first time.  Duh.  So that leads to the question, is that linen thread or hemp or leather lace that is used to attach the flap to the rest of the pouch?  It looks like linen thread or maybe hemp, but I just want to make sure. 

Gus

[Shreckmeister]

Gus. The leather is thinner than most old pouches I have handled. I will check the thread and report back. Not sinew I don't think

[Artificer]

Shreck,

Thanks for the further info on the leather and thread. 

It has been extremely interesting your sharing the knowledge of this pouch with us.  If you ever get the bag preserved enough to open it and get the balls or other items out, I’m sure some of us would be real interested in what is inside and further construction details.

Gus

[Artificer]

Shrek,

Well, I did think of a few more things I wanted to ask.  Grin.

Is the pouch constructed by sewing it and then turning it inside out?    I really can’t tell by the pictures.  Is there any kind of a welt in the seam/s?

I see there is not much or anything left of the strap/s.  I’m wondering how far apart the strap stitching holes are placed each side of the pouch?  This would give an idea of how wide the straps were.

Also, I’m wondering by the size of this pouch if it was meant to be
suspended by a belt around the waist,  rather than having an over the shoulder strap?  I may be mistaken, but I get the impression it is a belt suspended pouch?

Gus

[Shreckmeister]

Gus. I'll get those answers to you tomorrow. Thanks. Rob

[Artificer]

Thanks Rob,
Gus

[Shreckmeister]

I lifted the flap just enough to see that the pouch is not lined.  Behold under the flap is
another double cyma curve.  The pouch was sewn on sides and bottom and turned inside
out.  Looks like a welt only on the sides.
  The stitches are closer together and not the same as the flap stitching but also appear to
be linen threads.  I can't
answer the sewing on the strap attachement as it is sewn to leather extending upwards from
the side seams rather than to the back. 

[Artificer]

  I can't
answer the sewing on the strap attachement as it is sewn to leather extending upwards from
the side seams rather than to the back. 

Rob,

Now that’s interesting.  Sounds like it pretty much rules out a belt suspended pouch. 

Finer stitching on the inside most likely means the flap was a replacement or at least sewn by a different person? 

Sounds like the maker REALLY liked the double cyma curve decoration.  Grin.

Gus

[Elnathan]

Sounds like the maker REALLY liked the double cyma curve decoration.  Grin.

I was wondering if the pouch was made from scraps at a shop making military equipment, perhaps as a practice piece by an apprentice or something. That would explain why the cyma curve on the flap is the mirror of the original pattern.