Author Topic: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on  (Read 28096 times)

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2013, 07:36:31 PM »
Rob,

Is there any way you could post a side picture of your pouch? 

I’m trying to see how they got inside depth room in the pouch.  I’m wondering if it has a gussest on each side, or if the front might have been “blocked sewn” or if the front was made of a larger piece of leather that was gathered in when sewn to give some depth to the bag.

Thanks,

Gus

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2013, 07:50:01 PM »
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2013, 08:28:48 AM »
Rob,

Wow, that’s a GREAT picture.  Thank you!  That explains a lot to me about the pouch. 

Adult male freemen in the 1750’s through the Revolutionary War were within 1” to no more than 1 ˝” of modern day average height.  That means their hands were on average not that much smaller than ours.  (Average height shrunk in the 19th century through early 20th century due to large numbers of poor immigrants coming into this country, before average height once again starting increasing in the 20th century.)   I’ve been wondering how they got their hands down inside some of these small pouches and especially if the fronts and backs were “flat sewn.”

To get room to get a hand into this pouch, it looks like it was constructed of larger sized pieces that were “gathered in” when sewn together.  That and the thinner than normal leather would have allowed the pouch to open enough to get one’s hand in it and get a comparatively small object out. 

Thanks to the picture, I’m back to thinking this was a pouch intended to be suspended from a belt, though of course since I’m not handling it, I may be mistaken. 

I really appreciate you sharing the pouch with us.

Gus

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2013, 09:48:07 AM »
Quote from: Artificer
Sounds like the maker REALLY liked the double cyma curve decoration.  Grin.
I was wondering if the pouch was made from scraps at a shop making military equipment, perhaps as a practice piece by an apprentice or something. That would explain why the cyma curve on the flap is the mirror of the original pattern.

Elnathan,

This type of pouch would have been a good project piece for a young apprentice due to the relatively small amount of material lost, if the apprentice really screwed up.  If the apprentice made it good or even well, it would have been a good lesson and springboard of experience for the apprentice prior to moving on to more difficult or complicated projects.  Actually, I think such small and less complicated projects were assigned to apprentices as a normal procedure when such orders of bespoke work were taken and a shop had apprentices to do the work. 

Though I can and will not entirely rule out the double cyma curve decoration as coming from a shop that may have done contract work or made things for the military, I don’t believe we can automatically assume a military connection. 

Cyma curves and even double cyma curves were the hallmark of Queen Anne through Chippendale furniture covering most of the 18th century right up to the American Revolution in the larger cities and even later than that the closer one got to the frontier.  They even remained in some Federal Period furniture after the Revolution, though to a much lesser extent.  So this style of decoration was well known throughout the colonies. 

What I noticed was the double cyma curve decoration is not proportional in scale to the reverse double cyma curve on the bottom of the flap pouch.  The curves of the decorations are not nearly as rounded (in proportion) to the bottom of the pouch flap.  Personally, I would have thought such a decoration would have been proportional to the pouch flap to make it more pleasing to the eye as a smaller scale reverse mirror image.

Proportional Dividers were common tools for mapmakers, architects, draftsmen and furniture designers and cabinet makers long before and throughout the 18th century.  I imagine these dividers were also used by higher end saddlers and other leather workers as well.  Still, one doesn’t need proportional dividers to make proportional scale designs as it can be done with nothing more than proportional rule such as the “Golden Mean” of 1 to 2 or even trial and error with dividers.   

Besides the double cyma curve decoration not being in proportion to the bottom of the pouch flap, there are a couple more  “problems” with automatically associating it with a military source IMO.  What is highly unusual is the double cyma curve decoration was done in three places on this pouch by what Rob has reported and the ones on the front and back look like they are exact copies.  Not sure about the one under the flap that Rob reported.  This suggests to me it was done from perhaps a wood pattern at least or less likely a metal pattern.  One problem is with this pattern associating it with a military source is what military item would such a small pattern double cyma curve be used for?  I can’t think of anything.  The other problem is this size and kind of decoration is not common or even unknown for most military equipment outside the bottom of a cartridge box or pouch flap that was much larger than this pattern. 

This is why I believe it was perhaps a pattern used to identify things made by the shop where this pouch was made, because cyma curves were “in fashion” during most of the 18th century in so many things.  It may have been used multiple times on this pouch merely to allow the apprentice to get used to putting it on things made at that shop.  However, this is nothing more than speculation on my part.

Gus

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2013, 10:59:07 PM »
Is it possible to tell what kind of hide was used to make this from these photos?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 11:04:07 PM by Shreckmeister »
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2013, 09:35:50 PM »
Rob,

I'm sorry, but I can't identify the animal the hide/leaher came from, from your pictures.  I think it could be cow or pig, but it could be from a lot of other critters because the leather is a bit thin and it is a small pouch.  Might even be whistle pig. 

Some pouches of the time period are recorded as having been made from seal skin.  I'm not sure if that was from an aquatic seal or not.  If it was, it seems like they had to transport the hides over long distances just to make a rifle pouch and that seems very unlikely to me.
Gus

gizamo

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2013, 04:02:47 AM »
You know....

One of us really ought to replicate this bag... ;)


Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2013, 05:38:23 AM »
You know

I kinda thought from the number of looks that somebody already was ;)
Would somebody please share a picture of theirs when they finish it?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 05:55:32 PM by Shreckmeister »
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

necchi

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2013, 03:23:06 AM »
I plan on doing one.
I took interest in this simple bag back when the topic started. I think I have a place for something like that in my tack.
It's on the list but won't be until about March, gotta finish other projects first.
(I hope!)
I'll use 2-3oz veg tan and either Vinegaroon or Feibings black.
I sure wish there could have been a little more about it's origin,  ???  :-[

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2013, 03:58:37 AM »
Only Madison knows and he isn't going to say.  I sure wish I knew the history too.
Send me a picture when you finish it please.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

necchi

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2013, 06:19:11 AM »
Will do.
If it turns out well, I'll post to this topic.
I'd like to Thank you for providing the description and excellent photo's

gizamo

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2013, 12:49:08 PM »
I cut the construction paper patterns out this morning. Everything seems to proportion out well.  I will be cutting the leather out this evening, for a trial bag to test fitment.


Giz
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 12:50:59 PM by gizamo »

gizamo

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2013, 12:50:52 PM »
Trial bag...please post your thoughts on improving the patterns.

I did make the cyma curve larger on the bag flap. There is also a welt added.

Thoughts on how to make the bag strap???





Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2013, 03:09:29 PM »
Hey, Great job on the bag!  Really looks like the original. 
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

gizamo

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2013, 05:49:05 PM »
Thanks... :)

Went ahead with hanging the bag...


Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2013, 06:49:25 PM »
I like it!
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2013, 09:04:15 PM »
Fun following this discussion. Giz, can you tell us about the vertical line of stitching on the back? What's it about? It's on the original too, but maybe I missed something in the discussion.

Very useful thread, this. Thanks.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

gizamo

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2013, 09:09:49 PM »
It is something you find on earlier bags...it is decorative.  A fine count stitch wheel is pressed into service to make the design...

If you blow up the 1st page picture of Rob's bag....you will note a similar technique used inside the graved line of the cyma curve.  Either that, or the leather split out over 200 plus years.

Giz
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 09:19:41 PM by gizamo »

Offline Kermit

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2013, 09:19:30 PM »
Hmmmmm, interesting that there is both incised curve decoration and a decorative straight line of stitching that's on the back. I'm starting to see the sense in viewing it as an apprentice piece, giving him a couple of decorative elements to practice, as well as sewing both with and without a welt.

While I'm pretty reluctant to speculate about these matters, preferring to leave it to you scholars of these things, I can see this.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2013, 09:21:14 PM »
Giz,

Did you hang the strap from your shoulder and hold the ends to the bag before you figured out where to sew on the ends of the strap to the back of the bag?  

The reason I ask is because on my first hunting pouch that was made from soft leather, I did not do that and the pouch had sort of a tendency to "scrunch" or fold in on itself when I wore it.  I solved that by taking the strap off and resewing it after putting it over my shoulder and then holding the strap ends at angles widening from the top of the pouch and that kept the bag flatter on my body.  
Gus

Offline Kermit

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2013, 09:29:10 PM »
Just noticed your buckle, Giz. I like. Talk to us?
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

gizamo

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2013, 01:09:40 AM »
Giz,

Did you hang the strap from your shoulder and hold the ends to the bag before you figured out where to sew on the ends of the strap to the back of the bag?  

The reason I ask is because on my first hunting pouch that was made from soft leather, I did not do that and the pouch had sort of a tendency to "scrunch" or fold in on itself when I wore it.  I solved that by taking the strap off and resewing it after putting it over my shoulder and then holding the strap ends at angles widening from the top of the pouch and that kept the bag flatter on my body.  
Gus

Gus,

I took the liberty of putting the straps perpendicular to the rise in the low dome top.  This angles them away from the bag body and does two things. It makes the bag hang better functionally, and is pleasing to the eye.

As for fitting the bag...my apprentice (she who must be obeyed)  helps me fit the straps. 


Giz
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:21:38 AM by gizamo »

gizamo

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2013, 01:15:26 AM »
Just noticed your buckle, Giz. I like. Talk to us?

Yeah,  sometimes when I rush....I tend to make my own parts. ;D

Metal is much more forgiving than leather.

Giz
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:51:41 AM by gizamo »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2013, 09:00:16 AM »

Gus,

I took the liberty of putting the straps perpendicular to the rise in the low dome top.  This angles them away from the bag body and does two things. It makes the bag hang better functionally, and is pleasing to the eye.

As for fitting the bag...my apprentice (she who must be obeyed)  helps me fit the straps. 

Giz

Giz,

Thanks for the clarification.  I got a huge laugh out of your last sentence.  Grin.
Gus

Offline Dale Campbell

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Re: Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2013, 11:14:22 PM »
Shreck, Do you know a veterinarian? An x-ray of the pouch could at a minimum tell you what's inside. Lay a quarter next to it for a size comparison.
Best regards,
Dale