Author Topic: Resurrecting an old Back Action Lock... (Read 11801 times)

John C IND · « **on:** November 01, 2013, 02:09:56 AM »

Greetings All, this is my first post on this site. I have a very old smallbore (passes a .288 gage pin) rifle that I am resurrecting which has an N.ASHMORE Back Action lock with a broken tumbler and a missing hammer. I have begun making a new tumbler on my lathe and shaping it with files and a Dremel, but I find myself in a quandary: The rifle has set triggers, pull the back one and trip it with the front ONLY. Pulling the front trigger itself does nothing without engaging the back one first. The old tumbler could be an old replacement itself, as it's rather crude and has no half-cock notch. Since I intend to try shooting this old timer at squirrels next season, my question to the board is this: For Safety's sake, should I cut a half-cock notch in the new tumbler? If so, should I fit a fly to it as well, or would that be dangerous with the set trigger type it has? Thanks in advance for any suggestions and ideas. John C IND

whetrock · « **Reply #1 on:** November 01, 2013, 02:29:52 AM »

Hey John,
Welcome to the forum.
The guys are going to want to see what you are working with. Can you pull the triggers out and get photos of the internal parts from a couple of angles, and one of the current tumbler (the old one)? (If you need help with posting photos, just holler. There are some instructions about how to do that in the tutorial section on here.)
Also, be prepared to field some questions about the overall status of the gun, how safe the breech is, etc. Have you pulled the breech plug and examined the bore? There are certain standard questions that come up when reconditioning an old gun.

Whetrock

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #2 on:** November 01, 2013, 02:46:12 AM »

John;

There is a good chance the original tumbler had no half cock position. I own two old muzzleloaders that have such locks in them.

Hungry Horse

Levy · « **Reply #3 on:** November 01, 2013, 03:57:31 AM »

I second Hungry Horse. I've owned several old perc. squirrel rifles and not a one has had a half cock notch. I do have a couple that have double lever set triggers, but most have a single lever, which is more dangerous when you try to uncock the piece. Greasy fingers can make this process touchy at best. James Levy

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #4 on:** November 01, 2013, 04:30:56 AM »

I agree it probably had no half cock originally.

If you are going to carry the gun in the field, you definitely need a half-cock notch and fly.

If it's possible, you can take the internals from an L&R #700 back action lock. It has a tumbler with fly.

http://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70:back-action-model-700-800&catid=38:lar-locks&Itemid=61

John C IND · « **Reply #5 on:** November 01, 2013, 12:52:43 PM »

Thanks for the replies. The way the old tumbler fits the bridle and lockplate makes me think it's an ancient replacement. I will upload photos of the parts this weekend if I can find the time.
I have an L & R 700 here and the tumbler is not even close.
The tumbler I'm fabricating is O1 steel turned to the proper diameters and thickness and the general outline is almost complete except the notch area. I still need to do the cut for the stirrup too. It's my first attempt at a tumbler from scratch, but I haven't made any mistakes on it yet.
I got about 8" of hard-packed dirt and pebbles out of the Remington stamped (underneath) barrel which left no scars in the bore. There is some pitting present, but the rifling seems deep and clear. I will slug it soon to determine groove depth. The original acid-striped hickory ramrod had a fresh break and is missing about 4" too.
The stock was broken in half (a clean fresh split) through the trigger plate and lock mortices. Dyed Brownell's Acraglass took care of that. It's a curly maple halfstock with brass buttplate, triggerguard and lock bolt washer, german silver barrel wedge escutcheons and a poured pewter forend tip. It was built by J S Burson in Wabash, IND numbered 373 or 473, depending on which digit of the overstrike you believe.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #6 on:** November 01, 2013, 05:26:14 PM »

Quote

The tumbler I'm fabricating is O1 steel turned to the proper diameters and thickness and the general outline is almost complete except the notch area. I still need to do the cut for the stirrup too. It's my first attempt at a tumbler from scratch, but I haven't made any mistakes on it yet.

Don't forget that with double set triggers and a half cock notch you will need to put a fly in the new tumbler.
Dennis

John C IND · « **Reply #7 on:** November 03, 2013, 03:12:50 AM »

<div style="width:480px;text-align:right;"><embed width="480" height="360" src="

" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed253.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh68%2FMacNaughton360%2FJS%2520Burson%2520Rifle%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="javascript:void(0);" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" />[/url]<a href="http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/library/JS%20Burson%20Rifle" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" alt="MacNaughton360's JS Burson Rifle album on Photobucket" />[/url]</div>
If I did this right, these SHOULD be photos of the Burson rifle...
And if I didn't...

Captchee · « **Reply #8 on:** November 03, 2013, 05:39:28 PM »

Quote

Don't forget that with double set triggers and a half cock notch you will need to put a fly in the new tumbler.
Dennis

not necessarily Dennis.
It actually depends on his trigger set , how it was inlet and how heavy the rear trigger main spring is .
In which case it would also mean the trigger would have to be set prior to cocking the lock . In which case I would also agree with Axel that I wouldn’t use it for hunting unless it had a ½ cock and capable of being cocked then the trigger set .
Well unless this is a cap lock in which case you could leave un cocked or a flintlock which you would leave un primed and un cocked until your ready to fire .
Now if it were me , I would put a half cock and a fly on the tumbler . Then unless your wanting to try and keep things as original as you can , replace the bone head type fron trigger with a bar type so you can use it for a hunting trigger thus allowing you to use the front trigger to fire the lock .

Oh and you photo didn’t come through , you need to use the image tab and link for your photo

John C IND · « **Reply #9 on:** November 03, 2013, 06:07:35 PM »

Image Tab? Even with trifocals I fail to see an image tab...
What does it look like and where would I find one?
Thanks,
The computer-challenged John C

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #10 on:** November 03, 2013, 06:09:49 PM »

Quote from: Captchee on November 03, 2013, 05:39:28 PM

not necessarily Dennis.
It actually depends on his trigger set , how it was inlet and how heavy the rear trigger main spring is .

True. If the rear trigger holds the sear out of the notches once it's sprung, then the sear won't enter the half cock notch when the gun is fired.

However, with this kind of trigger arrangement, the gun can't be put in half cock unless the trigger is set.

So then you're walking around the woods with the gun on half cock, the triggers are set. Uh-oh. The trigger could fire, causing a the rear trigger to give the sear a good wallop. I don't like that idea.
If you unset the trigger, then the rear trigger is always pushing on the sear. Uh-oh. It's possible the sear nose could break, or half cock notch chip out, and the gun fires.

I don't like either scenario, neither is safe, in my opinion.

There is no reason to have an unsafe gun. We have the technology. If it's about saving money, skimp on the wood grade, or forgo the buttplate, but please don't skimp on safety.

Habu · « **Reply #11 on:** November 03, 2013, 09:37:00 PM »

Quote from: John C IND on November 03, 2013, 06:07:35 PM

Image Tab? Even with trifocals I fail to see an image tab...
What does it look like and where would I find one?
Thanks,
The computer-challenged John C

When you reply to a message, above the text window are two rows of little icons. the "image tab" is in the second row, second from the left. Looks like a little photograph. Click on that, then paste the url of the image between the two sets of brackets.

So: (img)image url(/img)

I'm not sure how to post a flash display of the pictures.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #12 on:** November 03, 2013, 10:05:18 PM »

Quote from: John C IND on November 03, 2013, 06:07:35 PM

Image Tab? Even with trifocals I fail to see an image tab...
What does it look like and where would I find one?
Thanks,
The computer-challenged John C

John,
With Admin permissions I can look at what you posted in regarding the photo links. Not sure what you used but it looks like it might be a URL to a slide show or something similiar. What you need is the direct URL to the photo, it should look something like this http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif (which is a URL from your post above) if put in your post like this http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif you can see it by clicking on the link. When you put

at the end (no spaces) it will auto display like this

As you can see it was not the correct URL to the gun photo, not sure what its too.
Dennis

T*O*F · « **Reply #13 on:** November 03, 2013, 10:35:11 PM »

OK, things are getting confused with an overlap of tumbler and trigger combinations. The original configuration of John's gun is a tumbler with no half cock notch and a single lever set trigger. He asked should he add a half cock notch and a fly.

These guns were used and carried extensively in the field and purpose built for that and there is no safer setup. The gun is capped and the hammer let down on the cap. This can be done without a half cock notch. The trigger is then set and the gun carried that way. When game presents itself, one only has to ease the hammer back and pull the rear trigger. There are no telltale clicks of the lock or triggers being set that one finds on a gun with a half cock notch, a fly, and double lever triggers.

As people often hunted daily, they didn't always unload their gun when they returned home. It was put up loaded. If it hadn't been fired, they only needed to trip the trigger if it had been set and then remove the cap and the hammer lowered back down. If it was cocked in the field but not fired then the hammer could be lowered as with any other gun.

These discussions get clouded with modern interpretations of safety and are further confused by referring to guns with half cock locks with flies and double lever triggers. So John, I say put the gun back into its original configuration.......there is a reason it was built that way.

Captchee · « **Reply #14 on:** November 03, 2013, 11:24:28 PM »

Acer , the trigger should not be able to pop the sear out of the 1/2 cock . it would take alot more to do that as your not only over riding the sear spring but also the main spring and thus caming the lock back .
Now on the other hand if your 1/2 cock notch is at a 90deg angle where the sear only has to drop down , then yep it can fire .
however that would also be a dangerous situation with any set up

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2013, 02:29:04 AM »

Capt, I agree it SHOULD not fire when in half cock. But parts break, sear noses slip out of half cock, notches chip, parts wear, etc.

I don't like the concept of walking around with a hammer resting on the cap. A good shove or bump on the back hammer, and the gun could go off. That is my point. It's not about what people commonly did, it's about what the best safe practice.

John C IND · « **Reply #16 on:** November 04, 2013, 04:36:38 AM »

Original tumbler photo, another attempt.
I have my fingers crossed...
If it works, a big thank you to Acer!
Apparently someone tried to braze the broken hammer shaft back in place...