Fine Arts

[nord]

Gentlemen:

Though the discussion seems to be ongoing, it would appear that at least for many of us there is a consensus. "Outreach" of one sort of another appears in the majority of posts. Further, it appears that many here have at least begun to consider active instead of passive outreach. The difference is profound.

Fred and I will get together sometime this weekend I expect. He'll share in detail about his meeting with the NRA. At first, though I was elated about NRA interest, I thought it was like preaching to the choir. After a week or so of consideration I've begun to think otherwise. Perhaps the NRA needs us in a rather unexpected way. Consider that the NRA is in a constant PR battle with the anti-gunners. No matter what the gulf between the anti and pro firearms folks isn't likely to be bridged... At least not by logic nor confrontation.

But what if the NRA happened to become a beacon for fine and unique American art? What if our long rifles were addressed as antique artworks long past firearm status? What if beauty and history were stressed with no emphasis placed on the "gun" aspect?  Truthfully it could be reasonably said that our fine long rifles bear about the same degree of danger to the firearms sensitive crowd as those depicted in historic paintings. And so I find myself excited about a NRA connection.

Going a bit further I see additional possible benefits. NRA has the incentive, resources, and experience to put together outreach programs. We've discussed individual attempts to educate and reach out to those who remain unaware of the long rifle. Curt Johnson has enjoyed some success as have others to one degree or another. But what if a plan and a curriculum were to be developed which might allow us to spread our message across the nation in a common format acceptable and welcomed by those we seek to educate?

I've begun to conclude that we've possibly been given the opportunity of a lifetime. While I'm yet unaware of the exact details I see the possibility of huge benefits for everyone concerned in this venture. Let's hope that Fred's meeting with the NRA gets the traction it deserves.   

[Shreckmeister]

Combining these two aspects of the discussion, i'm not sure the fine art community is going to be too excited about the NRA.  There is a definite gap to be bridged there. Not sure by the nature of these two groups that it will be possible. Yes on some level there could be shared interests but something tells me its not likely.  If the tack is to try to try to pull in the art community then the longrifle enthusiast might be better off not aligned with the NRA...and vice versa. I apologie if my post sounds negative.  I want the longrifle to be held in high esteem more than most.  Rob
kra and nra member

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

" The Lost Heritage and Art of the Kentucky Rifle"

Hurricane

[PPatch]

The Art of the Kentucky Rifle is self explanatory, the Lost Heritage angle is somewhat obscure to me although I do realize that the origins of the rifle is still somewhat debated. Could you expand on that for me Hurricane? Sounds like the basis for an interesting and educational read.

dp

[skillman]

IMHO the modern "black guns" are not seen in the same light as the beautiful works that are and were the American longrifle. Any gun that resembles the AR platform or an "assault rifle" is immediately seen as evil by the anti gunners. I'm not sure that getting the water muddied by an association with the NRA would be beneficial to our hobby. We do a show every year at our local Woodcraft store as a payback for their support of our Gunmakers Fair. People don't even equate us with the modern firearms enthusiasts. The discussions with the general public (and Seattle is a VERY liberal community) leads me to believe that we're already viewed as "artists" not firearms makers.  As long as this is the case, I would tread carefully.

Steve

[Buck]

Nord - Hurricane,

I appreciate the thought of what you are trying to accomplish. I think the NRA is busy on a critical path that is non - relative to this interest. It's more of a political beast that is busy preserving the American right to bear arms, than a lover of artifacts. I think that we are best to leave the Political Beast out of our arena, in all probability it might bring unwanted attention to our interests. This is not a NRA bashing either, I am glad they are on the war path protecting one of the last few things that separates us from the rest of the communal drones that occupy the rest of the world.

I think this is all a Knee Jerk reaction to the auction results. You can't judge trends by the outcome of 1 event, trends are usually measured by occurrences that take place over several years or decades. Also there was a lot of less than desirable over restored inventory.  Henry Bishop put it best, BUY SMART!

I think that mentoring is the key, and to try to execute it on a grand scheme is going to be difficult, the KRA and the appending shows are the key. An ALR show or 2 a year might also be a good idea where outreach can be shuffled into the itinerary.

Gentlemen Good Luck!
Buck



  

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Knee jerk perhaps, Nord ,I and a relatively few others have been tapping it for almost 10 years and it seems almost absent ( medical term) now. An  "absent reflex"  that is evidence of a risk of potential loss of the fight for survival. Apart from the NRA issue ( a gun audience of 4 million who knows or cares little or nothing of the "content of our similar form"), we number less than 3000 (estimate) between the CLA ,KRA, and others  in  a few recognizable organizations.  There little to no recognition in the American art world ( Antiques Magazine published 3 articles in the last 40 years ( 2 brief articles in 2012 and then one before it in 1972, for example). We grew up with George Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Daniel Boone and Davy Crocket as our heroes . This generation, it is  the Terminator, Dr. Spock and Steve Jobs. Is the meaning of early American history still a subject taught in our schools? Who buys the books?  Who will follow the gray beards?
Hurricane

[Shreckmeister]

  I think 3000 is a underestimation of the people with interest in longrifles.  I could name several people in my county with collections who are neither KRA nor CLA members.  They are however
all older than I am.  Having attended the Baltimore Antique Arms show the last 3 years, there have been well over 3000 in attendance there alone.
There is a time for everything.  It could simply be that the golden age of loving
golden age rifles is waning.  As we age, we tend to look back at the past
with reverence.  This is not what young men do.  They look forward.  It's up to us to mentor and
create interest.   
   I think young people in general look back at the revolutionary war period and the westward migration and feel that it has NO relevance today.   Today's American appears to be perfectly content giving up their freedoms in exchange for security.  This is because they are relatively comfortable.
When the comfort ceases, the spark will reignite.  
    Personally, everyone that knows me knows about my interest in history and longrifles.  It's not
for everyone, but hopefully I can bring someone along to follow up for me and many others can do the same.

[Buck]

Rob,
Well put 1/2 Gray Beard. I think that men prior to their 40's - 50's are busy with family and career, it doesn't mean that they aren't interested but it is hard to find the time and afford this interest when you are on the other side of the hill.

Buck

[skillman]

Put my ticket in the bucket with Schreckmeister and Buck. Well put. I especially agree with the point of family, career, and money getting in the way from the late 20s to the mid 40s.

Steve

[Paul E. Wog]

Well Played Mr. Shreckmeister,
  My sentiments exactly.  Why, it seems like only yesterday that we hashed over this very subject
            Peace Out....Shreck ( NOT Meister )

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Yeah I think Schreck and Buck have the more complete view.  I would much rather see us setting up displays with major Art Museums such as the one done a few years ago in Minneapolis(?) that resulted in the book....  Three Centuries of Tradition.  Get some of the Best art originals and some of the best art (fancy and plain) contemporary guns and do a room or more travelling display at places like the High Museum here in Atlanta.............

A Photo book to go with it for sale to patrons could pay for itself too..

[Shreckmeister]

I like Dr. Tim's idea of a travelling display and book.

[Majorjoel]

Ya Rob, I like that......"Have gun will travel" ! Kinda has a familiar ring to it!  If you think about this subject, you might see just how Joe Kindig Jr was able to collect such a remarkable group of longrifles. Way back in the early to mid 20th century, the average person had no interest in these old obsolete rifles.  Perhaps we are just a unique group of folks that march to a different drummer. I for one kind of like being unique in this crazy modern world.

[Buck]

I like the Good Doctors idea also. The museum approach is interesting. I have several connections at the Art Institute here in Chicago, I am going to do a little digging and see what I can come up with. I will report back what I came up with by next weekend.

I also (respectfully)would like to hear the results of the NRA discussions that Hurricane and Nord have been working on. I am not excited about the idea, but they have put copious amounts of effort into this interest of ours and we owe them our thanks and a respectful ear.

Buck   

[JTR]

So Rob, you think it’s the library committee that is excluding the presentation of the really nice guns?

I don’t know the inner workings of the library committee, but I believe they only vet what has been offered by owners for possible library inclusion.
 
Might it not be that none or few of the really fine guns have been offered?

After all, ask yourself what incentive the owners have for offering their gun? How will it be accepted once presented in the library? Will any possible restoration go unmentioned, or will it turn into another slew of comments condemning that sort of work?

Or will it even be noticed by the guys here on the forum.

Noticed? Yeah, noticed.

Look back a couple of weeks and you’ll see where one guy here shared his pride and joy outstanding big name maker rifle, and it received a grand total of four (4) replies. And one of those comments was a wise crack and one was lamenting that the gun had a patchbox covering the nicely striped wood of the stock. Sadly, since then, the owner has removed the pictures.

So yeah will a nice rifle even be noticed? Also, have you counted the number of collectors now actively participating in the forum on a regular basis? I’d suggest you can count them on one hand, probably with a few fingers left over. I know that several guy read these pages on a regular basis, but no longer actively participate. Perhaps someone should ask why all the guys that used to be here for the most part have opted out.

Also, go back and review the guns that have been vetted by the library committee and then posted on the forum for comments by the general membership. How many of these guns have even one comment?
 
I realize this is supposed to be the top Long rifle site, but to me, and it’s just my opinion, but it seems to me that very few here actually care for these guns in more than just a cursory way.

Perhaps we should be looking closer to home in encouraging the enjoyment of the Long Rifle, before we try to interest the general public.

And Rob, I'm not aiming this at you personally, and I'm not criticizing, just saying...  
John  

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

The Museum Committee operates to be sure that the presented rifles  are as repesented  and this is only done for educational correctness. The Committee tries hard to be sure that the guns are as described by the owners so that the students will be correctly "taught."  When there is a controversial gun, it is not dispalyed unless the owner wants public comment and allows Committee comment to be made public. Anything resembling a negative comment is presented to the owner to allow the  withdrawal of their  gun. Misrepersnted guns are declined with an explanation to the owner for their private consideration. Many who have offered their guns have learned much as has the students and members ( our sinlge goal). Todate,of more than 700 guns presented, prehaps 3 or 4 have been withdrawn, a few more declined. Few high end guns have ever been offered, primarily for concern ( as I understand it) that  possible non- correct or inaccurate public comments will cause "harm" to the precieved value of the gun or mislead others. The Committee ( all it it members) appreciates the privilege of performing this educational function , the respect of the majority of the ALR members and the confidence of those who have presented guns.  Pehaps we could develop a section for dispaly only; that might bring a few more out. Also, I am reminded that many of the "high end" guns are now published in books readily available to those seeking to view them.

Hurricane, Nord and The Museum Committee

[Buck]

I think we are getting off track.

Buck

[Mark Elliott]

I know this thread kinda took a tangent, but I would like to offer an opinion about getting in bed with the NRA.   I would certainly want to hear what they say, but I would be very cautious about getting involved with them.    I would always have the fear that I would be the one who ended up being used with my reputation damaged in the end.   I am an NRA Life member, but I am not sure that the NRA has any interest these days except the survival and power of the NRA.  Our interest is our love of the guns.  

I would like to see a large traveling show on the longrifle as art.    This would, however, require the dedication of a number of individuals as well as sponsorship by individuals or corporations with deep pockets.    I hesitate to push something like this though, because I couldn't contribute to it in any significant way, myself.   I already have about three times as much as I can do.    I am going to have to find simpler ways to promote the longrifle as art that in someway either helps me get my work done (an apprentice) or help me market my work (arts and antiques shows as well as gun shows).    I have a feeling that most people are going to be in the same boat as me.   That means that the big projects will fall to a relatively few people.

Perhaps there should be an action plan for the ordinary collector, builder, or shooter that only has a weekend or two a year and limited funds to dedicate to spreading the word of his love outside his or her normal circle of friends and associates.   This is a big push in the churches these days, particularly the mainline churches.   They are trying all sorts of things, and generally have suggested activities and programs for their members to spread the word to those outside of the normal churched circles.   It seems to me that there are a lot of similarities here, although, I in no way equate the love of our hobby with our religious devotion.   Our hobbies and even our trades must always be subservient to the Lord.  

I think that we should come up with a simple, maybe a 5 or 10 item, action plan that all ALR members could implement.   If it works here then maybe other organizations might take a look.   I don't think there is much point discussing what the CLA or KRA or NRA should do.   I think we should discuss what we, the members of the ALR,  could reasonably do.   Goals are of little use if they are not reasonably achievable.    Goals/milestones/tasks/deliverables should all be SMART; Simple, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, and Timely.   This is my project management training coming through.

[spgordon]

Few high end guns have ever been offered, primarily for concern ( as I understand it) that  possible non- correct or inaccurate public comments will cause "harm" to the precieved value of the gun or mislead others.

Here we get to the heart of one of my worries--but not one that is easily dispelled. What if public comments rightly cause "harm" to the established value of the gun? What if the discussion on a forum such as ALR correctly undermines an accepted attribution? Is this site doing a service or disservice in that case? I'd say a service--to everybody except the current owner, of course. Perhaps this will always be the case when the objects we are all researching or analyzing or commenting upon remain high-valued objects still available for exchange. But this fact inevitably shapes what will be shared here and what will not. As long as research or assessment is entangled with collecting and appraisals ... well, you all can finish that sentence as you wish.

[jdm]

Here we get to the heart of one of my worries--but not one that is easily dispelled. What if public comments rightly cause "harm" to the established value of the gun? What if the discussion on a forum such as ALR correctly undermines an accepted attribution? Is this site doing a service or disservice in that case? I'd say a service--to everybody except the current owner, of course. Perhaps this will always be the case when the objects we are all researching or analyzing or commenting upon remain high-valued objects still available for exchange. But this fact inevitably shapes what will be shared here and what will not. As long as research or assessment is entangled with collecting and appraisals ... well, you all can finish that sentence as you wish.
[/quote]



What if they wrongly cause harm to the established value of the gun.  Does any one care besides the owner who has invested thousands.  The comments on the world wide web are not always from well informed.

[Tanselman]

Perhaps the major reason for the limited number of high end guns in the ARL virtual museum has less to do with the reasons suggested here, and more to do with the time-tested belief by many owners of the finest guns that over-exposure of better pieces tends to damage re-sale value. Many of the finest rifles are owned by high-end collectors, and most that I have talked to think the best selling price can be obtained when an object is new to the market, or has minimal pre-market exposure. The "newness" or "freshness" of a piece causes greater curiosity, interest, and desire to see and own it among potential buyers. We see that at many major auction houses when they advertise with terms such as "never before seen" or "recently discovered" or "fresh out of the attic." Most owners of high dollar, top-end rifles want to protect their large investment in the items...and a major step in doing so is preventing over exposure.

I do not believe ARL will ever be offered many of the finest rifles for display in its virtual museum. It is not because the owners' fear our vetting comments, but rather because they believe wide internet exposure dampens the specialness, freshness, and future desirability and demand for their rifles. It is probably more an art than a science knowing how to whet potential buyers' appetites by exposing a fine antique, but not over-exposing to where interest begins to dampen. I believe they are simply not going to take a chance on over-exposing their finest rifles, particularly when their guns would sit alongside a wide range of other lesser rifles presented pictorially in a sometimes rambling or inconsistent manner.

Many of the recent comments seem to be fixated on getting finer rifles into the ARL museum. We seem to forget, in the arguments for promoting the Kentucky rifle as a work of "fine art" to generate wider public interest, that it was one of the critical working tools used daily by our forefathers to settle the frontiers of our territories and states. It wasn't until the frontier had passed and its dangers removed, that most of the wealthy, or newly wealthy, men acquired their fine, highly decorated rifles to impress their peers with. The real Kentucky rifle was more the high volume gun that went west to settle the frontier, and not the elegant, limited works of art that we all love, but most can't afford to buy. ARL has a small selection of "golden age" arms in its virtual museum...makes me wonder if the small number, when compared to the much larger number of more standard rifles, isn't somewhere in the ballpark of what the natural ratio is between the "works of art" and the common man's Kentuckies. If so, we're not doing so badly.  Shelby Gallien

[spgordon]

The last couple of posts confirmed the point I was trying too clumsily to make:

As long as these objects that we all love are privately owned and traded and so their market value remains primary (as it should!), the research/education side of this site (and other publications) will be at odds with the collecting/display side. The public-ness of open shows, frequent display, published research, etc. inevitably threatens to unsettle the value of these objects. I can't see how there is any escape from this built-in tension.

[Shreckmeister]

     I fully grasp the economics of this and should not have shared my frustration without further thought.  That said, I deem my commentary as inappropriate and will remove it so it doesn't sit there and continue to embarrass me.  Sincerest apologies to those who took this to heart.  

[nord]

Gentlemen:

No comments here are inappropriate and none should be removed. Honest opinions have been solicited and received. Nothing wrong with this as far as I can determine. So...

Library Committee? Certainly NOT a power position for anyone involved! Nameless not for the purposes of negative comments but merely to insure the honest presentation of a worthy artifact. Declined offerings, and there have been a number of them, have for some reason given us pause as a group. Our concerns have ranged from incomplete or poor photographs to excessive or possibly inappropriate reconstruction, or in some cases a lack of background information sufficiently raising more questions than supplying answers. And, of course, late generic rifles submitted with the best of intentions but not within our scope of interest. Fred and I make every attempt to insure that Committee comments are both honest and positive. Any negativity is cleared with the gun owner before it appears in public.

The theories about "High End Rifles"? Such artifacts in private hands are owned by those who I must assume can afford such. Owners have free choice whether to share with the world or not. I personally haven't a clue as to why such items might be withheld from public view, but it's not my place to tell others what to think. As a co-developer of the ALR project my place is only to point out the graying hair and lack of fresh faces seen in certain places and my wonderment at why this is being generally accepted.

NRA? Getting in bed with the NRA? Worries about public perception if we cooperate with the NRA? Truthfully I'm more concerned about the total lack of perception about our artifacts by the general population. It seems we preach openness and outreach here, yet new faces have to come to us for the most part. How can we possibly enjoy any degree of success if we don't take the Kentucky Rifle outside our little circle?

My point being that "getting in bed" with or cooperation with an outside organization is really about two distinctly different paths. If we for a moment consider the NRA I believe we can agree that it has a broad (and biased) base. We can also safely state that the NRA is a political animal. On the other hand the NRA is experienced at outreach and education. We obviously aren't. If the NRA has interest in promoting our antiques even for their own ends I really don't see the problem. After all we aren't about modern arms and we aren't as a group really even owners of firearms in the sense that nothing we collect falls into the legal definition of a firearm.

I would extend my reasoning to a polar opposite of the NRA. For all I care the NAACP! Of course I jest but my point is that if such an organization for some reason had a vested interest in fine art, then why not cooperate with them? After all, we aren't required to endorse the policies or practices of those with whom we share information. Our focus should solely be the dissemination of information with the hope and expectation of drawing the interest of those outside our community.

Wouldn't it be beneficial to the entire nation at this point in history if the polar opposites suddenly discovered that they shared a common interest even if for only one small thing? What if our fine art was presented by the NRA in a bit less strident manner than is usually expected by those in opposing camps? What if a generally liberal organization discovered our fine arts and began to appreciate them for what they are? What if we at ALR learned in the process how to extend outward to educate and inform those who might be open to fine arts rather than perceived firearms?

Just remember that at this point we're only discussing an idea. Nothing has been set in stone. The fact is that there really aren't any firm offers on the table. All Fred and I are asking is that we as a group begin to seriously consider the future. Do we stand back and watch, or do we attempt to direct the future of our collections? Should we worry about affiliations or should we place our emphasis on what we share and not worry so much about those spreading our message?

Please continue to express your opinions and ideas. This subject is far from closed. Our purpose is not to railroad anyone nor disregard the opinions of anyone. Fred and I brought up this subject because of our deep regard for fellow ALR members. We value each of you greatly.

B