Author Topic: Belgium Laminated Barrels  (Read 6422 times)

Mobyduck

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Belgium Laminated Barrels
« on: November 03, 2013, 03:17:23 AM »
As mentioned, I am in the beginning steps of making a double barrel flint shotgun. As per Brockways book, he recommends using a good set of Damascus barrels. I picked up a set of barrels on Ebay that are stamped Belgium Laminated Steel - 1907. They are shot shell barrels and appear to be in good condition, at first glance. I cannot see any lines in the steel. Are they worth putting any effort into? Appreciate any comments -

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Belgium Laminated Barrels
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2013, 05:48:01 AM »
Damascus looks good but there's no advantage so far as I know.  Condition matters most, I would think.
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anj4de

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Re: Belgium Laminated Barrels
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2013, 03:52:35 PM »
Not sure if this matters...

About 20+ years ago I was part time working in a shop that sold lots of old guns..and other stuff. We sometimes (rather often) had old Belgium made Le Forget revolvers made for those strange cartridges that have a pin sticking out sideways(?)...Most were rather small and a lot of them were made from what looked like damascus metal (I won't call it steel) They were all from around the turn or the century (19th-20th) or so...and the qualitiy was really bad throughout! I think any gun/metal related product coming from there and that time should be inspected very closely for quality issues.

cheers
Uwe

Offline Captchee

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Re: Belgium Laminated Barrels
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2013, 05:08:55 PM »
 First ,laminated barrel are not true Damascus. Its made for the most part completely differently  
Laminated is kind of a catch all description and from what I have read , how it was made and the actual amount of steel  varied greatly between makers .. Thus the quality can very .
 I like some others here did a  write up on Bill Brockway’s book . that’s been some years ago  bt I don’t seem to recall him specifying  not to use laminated or stub barrels . I could be wrong  but I don’t recall it .

 Whats rather odd about  the whole issue with Damascus  or what is commonly accepted as Damascus   barrels is that  most if not all the big  name American manufactures were using those same barrels and placing their own markings on them . IE makers like Colt , Remington , Winchester,  Parker  .. All were all using barrels made in Belgium , turkey , England , Germany ……
   During the   congressional hearing  most of the makers were forced to admitt to it .
  If you go to this link you can read up on all the different type , history , how different barrels were made  and the politics surrounding the issues of the time  
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y52UbLaVsDAYd3BJLNTzTnqa7CzuhnbgonQzuYRuLvs/preview?pli=1


As to if you can see  a pattern , that depends again on the maker .  Your barrels could have been struck  or refinished and thus the pattern is no longer visible. Also I have found that with some laminated barrels , getting that pattern to come back can be near impossible .   This is again do to the way the barrels are made vs. how true Damascus is made .

As to if the are worth your time ?
 that’s up to you .  Have you Ringed them to insure the ribs are not loose  ?
 Are you  going to try and bring the pattern back out . If  that maters to you , I would make an attempt to do that  in a small area  first .
 If that doesn’t mater to you and the barrels  show to be solid . I personally don’t see a reason  why  you cant use them .
 Myself I have used laminated barrels on a couple SXS . They have held up well for their owners
 also only in a couple cases have i removed the chokes
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 05:19:13 PM by Captchee »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Belgium Laminated Barrels
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2013, 06:13:31 PM »
You can do a faux damascus pattern on steel barrels.

I have some info on this, PM me if you want the info. It's also on the ALR, if you search.

Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Belgium Laminated Barrels
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2013, 08:11:09 PM »
It is my understanding (from some who work in modern materials) that mild acids or etchants are used to "re-raise" the figure after working laminated/Damascus/samurai type steels.

Hold to the Wind

Offline Captchee

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Re: Belgium Laminated Barrels
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2013, 11:25:56 PM »
 it may or maynot wade . it just depends on how the  barrel was made and what types of metal were used in the pool

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Belgium Laminated Barrels
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 03:55:27 AM »
it may or maynot wade . it just depends on how the  barrel was made and what types of metal were used in the pool
si amigo  ;)
Hold to the Wind

Offline kutter

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Re: Belgium Laminated Barrels
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2013, 04:00:36 AM »
If the question is 'are they safe',,that could end up being a 10 page thread w/still no ending to it.
There are people on one side of the issue that contend and have their facts and evidence that given a good set (not damaged, deeply pitted or thin walled) they are strong enough for smokeless powder loads "that mimic BP pressure curves".
Certainly the use of any smokeless powders is not in question here but it shows the big gap between the schools of thought as the other side can go as far as thinking that ANY composition bbl is to be laid up, never shot even w/ BP.

Composition bbls old and new are still accepted at the English Proof Houses for proof and reproof w/smokeless powders at normal proof and service pressures (no special powderpuff loads for these) . They are treated the same as a steel barrel.

Aside from their make up,,check for loose ribs. The old soft soldered joints can be weak and loose sections are not at all uncommon. Laying a section back down can be an easy quick job,, or it can be a frustrating experience because of the old encrusted dirt, oil, rust in the joint.
Re-laying the entire top and/or bottom ribs is sometimes easier than trying to 'fix' a section of loose rib at least for me. It's just a soldering job.
At least w/the ribs off you do get to check things inbetween the ribs. Sometimes the old use of acid type soldering flux makes for a deeply pitted to the dangerous point in there. I've had a couple that were scrapped after a look inside there and these were steel barreled hammerless doubles.


As far as refinishing them to bring the pattern back out,,any of them can be re-done successfully. You can have the older traditional Brown & White colors of the muzzle Loader era and English cartridge guns. Or the Black & White colors that many of the US shotgun makers used.
It's a matter of rust browning vs rust bluing.
The trick if it is one to bringing out the pattern in the steel & iron entanglements that make up the bbl material is an etching process in between the rusting cycles.

Ferric Chloride in very weak solution is what I use (>5%). A quick dip plunge into the stuff and that's it.
No carding wheel here,,all steel wool carding and done under running water right as they come from the etch tank.

 It's a very long process as you remove the color from the harder steel in the pattern with each etch cycle, but leave a bit of it clinging on the softer iron.
The amount built up w/each pass on the iron in the pattern is very small as you take part of it off at the same time you clear off the steel.

15 to 20 passes is not unusual for a 'damascus' finish. The first 5 or 6 will leave you thinking nothing is happening.

Bores have to be protected during the entire process because of the etching. Plugs I don't trust. I coat the bore heavily with shellac,,recoat at cycle 8 or 9. Never have had a problem.

Brown&White is faster to do as it skips the boiling process each time needed to do Black&White.
Some have good luck etching every other or every 3 cycles instead of every time. Same with the boiling doing a Black & White pattern,,some boil every other cycle.
Takes some experimenting. Some bbls will allow you to get away w/short cuts if you want to call them that. Others won't. You know quick enough if you can,,like the Blue converts but still has a brown tint to it if you try and skip cycles. Stuff you learn.
There's other ways and techniques,,this is only one.

FWIW..
A quicky way to bring out the pattern is to apply laundry bleach on a cloth to the freshly polished bbl(s). No heat,,just scrub them down. Sometimes amazing results occur,,sometimes another hour of polishing for you to rid you of the mess of what could have been.
Always rinse the stuff off completely,,leave any on the surface (or it gets inside the ribs),,heavy rusting will occur.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 04:15:32 AM by kutter »

Offline Captchee

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Re: Belgium Laminated Barrels
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2013, 05:42:35 AM »
   The barrels being Belgium made should be soldered  but don’t bet on  it . I have found Belgium barrels that had their ribs brazed .
 If the barrels have  brazed  on ribs and they and have come lose , then   your in for some work .. But again ring the barrels .. Simply hang the barrels by a string or wire and lightly strike them with a  metal tool . If they are  still joined properly , they will have a very high pitched , resonating ring  just like a good tuning fork


the problem isnt IF the pattern can be brought back , its  more about how stubborn the pattern is in revealing itself .
 i have had barrels that would pop the pattern very quickly  with bleach . yet still others that took to ferric  and still other like the one im doing now , that  simply will not pop .  right now after near 15 rounds its  at the point where  you look real close and say : mmm? i think there is something starting to show but  maybe not .

 one of the best  processes that i learned some years back was a process  that included   etching or  browning , then boiling  followed using logwood bath  then followed  up  with an  Iron  supplement  bath . that’s followed by rinsing under cold water and carding with burlap .
 The log wood actually turns the  iron oxide to an even darker black .  When the  barrels are then set to the iron bath , the iron loosens all the  iron oxide off of the harder steel areas   to the point it just simply wipes off . But at the same time on the areas of softer material , I reinforces it .
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 05:48:08 AM by Captchee »