red varnish finish

[RichG]

I've been experimenting with red varnish and I'm not getting what i want. I searched on the contemporary makers blog under violin finish and found a pistol by kuntz that caught my eye. The red finish is on the wood not in it. the areas that the wood is showing through the finish show this, especially on the side opposite the lock. I've finished one rifle with 10% nitric and red varnish as per Jack brooks and it looks like the pictures on his website( a golden orange-ish color) but I'm not having much luck with the darker red finish. I got some ferric nitrate to get a little darker color on the wood than the 10% nitric acid.  When I brush on the varnish the 1st two coats just fill up the wood. was it normal to seal the wood before applying a varnish? I've always figured the varnish was a sealer/finish. Also tried dissolving some dragons blood into shellac and it doesn't seen to be mixing . the ground up dragons blood just looks to be suspended in the shellac because when I brush it on a piece of wood there's no color. does it need to set for a few days for the dragons blood to fully dissolve? more dragons blood? A lot of coats of varnish? Any Ideas anyone.

[PPatch]

I can answer part of your question - when doing a varnish finish the initial application is a thinned out version of the varnish. It is applied liberally and wiped back, allowed to dry completely, and then sanded smooth with fine paper before proceeding with the top coats. You need the varnish for the top coats thinned just about perfect for laying down a smooth coat. You can tell it is right by the way it flows off the brush on to the wood - it will lie down immediately and show no or very little ripple or furrowing as it goes down. Too thin and it runs, too thick and it won't lie down before it tacks up. A good quality brush is a must, and to be very careful to not introduce air bubbles into the varnish when mixing, or into the brush when dipping into the varnish (wet just the first 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch) or you will get cat's eyes all over the place as the varnish sets up. A smooth, even, fairly slow, stroke is also needed with just a slight overlap into the preceding one. Of course I am talking about varnishing furniture, my only experience - how you will do all of that on the surface of a gun stock is something else again.

In any case that is the way I was taught when finishing furniture, including beginning a French polish.

dp

[Acer Saccharum]

The Dragon's blood I have dissolves easily into alcohol. I made a spirit varnish, which is really just a shellac style finish, with alcohol, Dragon's and shellac.

I applied this like a french polish, working up layers of finish on a woolen bob, and olive oil. YouTube French polish, there are many tutorials out there.

[RichG]

acer   is the dragons blood you use already a powder or do you grind it up or just drop into the alcohol? I ordered some online and what I got is a couple of chunks that look like rock candy.

[E.vonAschwege]

Hey RichG,
    There are lots of Kuntz/Rupp pistols that have survived today and sometimes make it to auction for all to see in photographs.  Dragon's Blood is, as Acer said, a spirit varnish - it should be ground into a powder and dissolved in the alcohol.  Can even be mixed with some seedlac for more body.  A drop of spike lavender oil in the mixture may make it less brittle too - just experiments for me so far, haven't used it on a firearm yet.
    It is my opinion that many of the really deep red Kuntz pistols are finished with a madder pigment red violin varnish, applied over a lightly stained (if stained at all) stock.  Madder pigment can be ordered from Kremer pigments.  Red Iron Oxide pigment also works similarly, but doesn't give the same transparency that madder does.  Madder pigment is mulled into a thick slow-drying varnish and essentially becomes the consistency of slightly thinned oil paint.  This is then rubbed very thin onto the stock in several layers.  Depending how fine it is mulled, it can get a little grainy, and may need to be rubbed back between coats with some superfine steel wool or burlap.  I've finished a couple guns with madder pigment varnish - one of them used my own brewed linseed oil varnish (which took forever and a day to dry), the other I used tru-oil.  The linseed oil finished gun has darkened substantially, and the tru-oil pistol is still bright red as far as I know. 

In both the photos below, areas of the finish were rubbed back to highlight stock contours and carving, showing the light amber wood underneath.  Good luck!

[sweed]

FWIW Yes, what PPatch said. One suggestion on fish eyes. If the wood is in the process of warming up as finish is applied, you will get fisheyes, cateyes, tiny bubbles, in the finish no matter how carefully you use your brush or thin your material.
 What is happening?  The air inside the wood is expanding, as it warms, and migrating outward getting trapped under the finish. S O O O.....To minimize this, I learned to make sure the wood was cooling off as I applied finish. This has the effect of drawing finish into the pores of the wood, eliminating many a bubble. That's my experience from yacht work, much of it done outside    where temp changes were frequent, and pronounced!
We would lay our prepared work out in the sun for a while, then bring it inside for about 15min before applying our finish.

Good luck
sweed

[Acer Saccharum]

Sweed, that's BRILLIANT.

I'd observed this in reverse while heating my stock while applying beeswax. The wax would melt and the foam up where the wood was being heated. Upon cooling, the wax would suck into the wood.

[RichG]

Does the quality of dragons blood vary between sources? I paid $14 for 4oz. and Kremmer wants $65 for 100gr. maybe more pure?

Eric- do you thin the tru-oil or dissolve the madder in anything  or just put it in the oil and rub on thin coats as per usual ?
 
thanks everyone

[E.vonAschwege]

Hey Rich,
   I've never used the block chunks of dragon's blood - you might crush them up and see if they dissolve at all in denatured alcohol.  The Kremer pigments are artist grade, very pure.  Madder is a pigment and does not dissolve in anything, you're creating a suspension of the particles in the varnish. 

As a side, I just uploaded a tutorial for red varnish finishes on my website:

http://www.neahkahnieflintlocks.com/red-violin-varnish.html

Best,
-Eric

[sweed]

  Thanks Acer. Even us blind squirrels find a nut from time to time.    Only took me about two years to figure that one out! 

[Chris Treichel]

The Tradesman Volume 12, January to June 1814

Red Varnish
the first coat is composed of lac ground with oil of turpentine; the second with same lac and copal varnish; the latter is prepared by dissolving one part of copal in two parts of oil of turpentine, and by adding to this solution an equal quantity of linseed oil of varnish.