Author Topic: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited  (Read 6011 times)

Okefinokee Outlaw

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Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« on: November 22, 2013, 09:24:24 PM »
I know this has been discussed, but I need some reassurance.  I'm building a pre-inletted kit, and the center of the flash pan is exactly 1/2" from the rear of the barrel.  I might be able to push the lock forward a hair and stay within the inlet, since it is not completely inlet.  This means that the touch hole liner, 1/4" diameter, will enter the threaded portion of the breech, and I'll have to file a groove.  Some are telling me this is no problem at all, and others are telling me it will eventually be a problem due to fouling entering the threads.  Your thoughts?

Offline PPatch

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2013, 09:28:57 PM »
Have you inlet the tang yet? Any chance you can move the barrel back? I was able to do that on my pre-carve, moved it almost 1/4 inch. I will let more experienced builders give advice on "problem or not."

dp
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Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2013, 09:36:29 PM »
I have not yet inlet the tang.  I can maybe move the swamped barrel back a bit without creating a gap on the side of the barrel.

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2013, 10:51:58 PM »
OO,

I've had the same situation, and I moved the swamped barrel back about 3/16".  You're not moving it very far, so the gaps, if any, will be very small.

-Ron
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 10:52:19 PM by Ky-Flinter »
Ron Winfield

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Joe S

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2013, 02:17:19 AM »
You don't need a vent liner.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2013, 02:17:33 AM »
I've done the same as Ron and it worked fine. Moving the barrel back and posibly edging the lock forward should get you where you want to be.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2013, 03:20:21 AM »
Quote
You don't need a vent liner.
I agree that you don't "need" one but I have had a couple of rifles that in order to keep my sanity I "had" to install them ;D
Dennis
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Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2013, 03:44:47 AM »
I sincerely appreciate all of the advise.  Time to start chiseling.

Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2013, 06:52:45 AM »
Last question.  Rather than use the kit builder recommended 5/16" liner, could I substitute the 1/4" so I could remove just a bit less wood?

Offline davebozell

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2013, 03:15:49 PM »
You can use the smaller liner.  Moving the barrel back should also improve the lines of the gun.  It seems this is a very common issue with precarves, whether the lock inlet is precut or not.  Depending on how much you use the gun, you could start with no liner and then add one later if the original touch hole "grows".  Give yourself enough room to add a liner later.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2013, 04:13:39 PM »
I know this has been discussed, but I need some reassurance.  I'm building a pre-inletted kit, and the center of the flash pan is exactly 1/2" from the rear of the barrel.  I might be able to push the lock forward a hair and stay within the inlet, since it is not completely inlet.  This means that the touch hole liner, 1/4" diameter, will enter the threaded portion of the breech, and I'll have to file a groove.  Some are telling me this is no problem at all, and others are telling me it will eventually be a problem due to fouling entering the threads.  Your thoughts?


 No fouling in the threads and it was used back in the day.

NOTE: The threads are omitted from the drawing. In case someone here is from Rio Linda.
Dan
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 04:59:03 PM by Dphariss »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2013, 04:49:00 PM »
If done CAREFULLY its possible to put in a 1/4" liner right at the breech face and still seal the threads.


Drill pilot hole which just touched the breech face, make a flat bottomed hole with a piloted counterbore that matches the tap for good thread fit. I think this is 12-32 IIRC.
Grind a tap so to cuts right to the bottom then fit the liner to the tapped hole. If the breech is fit right which if the barrel came breeched by the maker may be a problem, everything a good to go.
As is shown here in a "breeched by the maker" barrel what can be seen by looking down into the grooves of the rifling is the THREADS of the breechplug.

This is about as bad as a fouling trap gets (most if not all mass production guns are much the same) and it comes from the barrel maker and/or maker not giving a @!*%.
The fussy builder needs to at least check the breeching. I prefer unbreeched barrels myself then I can fit them like they should be. These two photos show my breech fitting vs someone who does not care. Since they have been doing similar things apparently for quite some time the customers apparently think its OK or are so trusting or ill informed that they are clueless.
So install, proof test, shoot.

Dan
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Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2013, 07:02:13 PM »
Dan,  So in your upper photo I'm seeing the liner screwed into the barrel wall and into the breech plug threads, with a groove filed or machined in front of that, correct?   Dave

whetrock

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2013, 07:34:15 PM »
Outlaw,
Do you know exactly how deep the breech hole is, from lip to base?  And do you know exactly how much actual (complete) threading you have on your breech plug?  It is common for machinists who make plugs to cut a notch ("thread relief") around the plug at the back of the threads, and sometimes at the front of the threads, as well. And some do not cut the threads in the hole all the way to the bottom, either. [I am NOT criticizing anyone here. I'm JUST making an observation.] Anyway, the point is in some plug designs and installations there may be only 1/2" or less of actual holding threads in a hole that is 5/8" or even 7/8" deep. That puts the face of the plug forward further than is necessary in relation to the actual holding threads of the plug. It's possible to rework/rebuild the plug, or install a different plug, but it's a little tedious to do so.  AND, in your situation, this change would still involve moving the barrel back, and might leave gaps around a swamped barrel. But the gaps may be minimal, if even visible at all. MY POINT in bringing all this up is simply to say that working on the plug might help you move the barrel back without messing up the fit and profile of the tang area. Any time you move a barrel forward or back, up or down, you not only affect how the taper and flare will fit, but also how everything fits in the tang area as well.

As you may know already, one reason this issue comes up in relation to precarve inlets is that some of the precarves are based on original antique stock designs, which had a very minimal plug (with many at 1/2" or so, and sometimes less), and which often did not have any sort of liner. So those old stock designs had the touch hole further back than most contemporary layouts really plan for. So it is important to do careful measurements and draw everything out on paper before you start cutting. Is sounds like you did that. I just mention it here for others who may follow suit!

Have fun.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 07:41:05 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2013, 02:24:36 AM »
Hole is .50" and the threaded plug is exactly .50".  There is no thread relief where the threaded plug hits the bottom of the hole.

whetrock

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Re: Touch Hole & Liner Location - Revisited
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2013, 03:23:56 AM »

That's good. That means you aren't loosing any space unnecessarily.