Location of forward ramrod pipe

[galamb]

Ok, need more help with my planning here.

Not (copying) a specific rifle, have seven original examples and taking what I like from each which has led me to this issue. I can't figure where to place the front ramrod pipe.

On the examples I have the nose cap is uniform across the bunch at 1 7/8" long. Then measuring from the back of the nose cap to the front of the forward ramrod pipe I get severely different measurements ranging from 1 1/2" (so really close) to 2 3/4" (on two of the rifles) with others being 1 5/16" and 1 3/4".

So I guess my real question is - is there any "math" to positioning the forward ramrod pipe OR it simply placed in a location that is visually appealing (balanced) OR is there some other method for determining the location.

If I was trying to copy a specific rifle I would simply use the measurement from the original, but since there seems to be no consistency from this builder (Christian Hawken), I am not sure how to proceed here.

Thanks in advance.

[Pete G.]

First thing to do is make sure you miss the forward barrel lug; then make sure that halfway between the front pipe and the entry pipe misses the second lug (on a barrel with 3). That takes care of the practical. The rest is visual between the nose cap, forward pipe and the end of the rails. I use my 3:5 dividers that we made in architecture school to work it out, but that seems to raise the ire of some in these parts.

[omark]

OH NO!!!    lol

[PPatch]

DID SOMEONE MENTION THE GOLDEN MEAN?  

Bonk! "shut ur mouth dave..."

Miss those under barrel lugs and make it look pretty.

dp

[galamb]

Ok, so no "rules" - except maybe that shiny precious metal one

[Acer Saccharum]

I'd go with:
1) what looks best

If you don't know that, then:
2) what was done before. Average original examples if you like.

[galamb]

Perfect,

just didn't know if there was some reason, other than cosmetic, for placing it closer or further from the end of the barrel.

[Acer Saccharum]

I've placed pipes really close to the lock, which I suddenly thought was a horrible mistake, but continued with the build anyway. It turned out to be one of my most successful works. Go figure.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

OK so one practical determinant of location is that you can hold the muzzle in your hand while loading etc and not be grasping the ramrod pipe.... thin originals could be easily bent...  otherwise ...what looks best. 

[Acer Saccharum]

I've placed pipes really close to the lock, which I suddenly thought was a horrible mistake, but continued with the build anyway. It turned out to be one of my most successful works. Go figure.

Oh, duh, you're talking about the FRONT pipe.

[galamb]

Thanks Dr. Tim-Boone

that gives me a practical measurement to go with.

[whitebear]

OK so one practical determinant of location is that you can hold the muzzle in your hand while loading etc and not be grasping the ramrod pipe.... thin originals could be easily bent...  otherwise ...what looks best. 

Doc. are you trying to load your rifle or choke it to death?

[Acer Saccharum]

Some pipes, especially if made like original guns, are wafer-thin. If they didn't have ribbing, they'd be easily crushed.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

They also get sharp..ask me how I know....
Doug, Sometimes I would like to choke it... then I remember who is at fault 

[Mark Elliott]

There are no actual rules, but I do have a rule of thumb I use personally as far as a minimum distance from the muzzle to the first thimble.   I, as a general rule, make my thimbles and nose piece approximately the same length.   I put the first thimble at least one thimble/nose piece distance behind the nose piece.    Usually, it is a little further back to avoid the front barrel tenon or to allow me to terminate my forearm molding the way I want.   I will also move the front thimble some in order to even up the distance between thimbles.   

[whetrock]

A lot of old masters seem to have followed Mark Elliot's advice. 

[Jim Kibler]

My preference is for somewhere in the range of twice the muzzle cap length.  A quick scan of guns in RCA II tells me this is pretty reasonable.  There is a range or course but say 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 times the length seems to be often encountered.   From an aesthetic standpoint a decent distance seems to look better in my view.

[halfstock]

Don't hammer me too much but I've found that in general southern mountain and Tennessee mountain rifles have the longest distance ie( 2 3/4" to 3 1/4") from the back of the nose cap or that general area if no nose cap is installed. Best I can tell on the originals it must have been for the ease of grabbing the rod.  ////???

[galamb]

I appreciate all the suggestions. Planning for this build has been driving me "buggy". I have seven original examples to draw from and you would "think" that would make things easier when trying to (pattern) a composite of the builder.

But no, there are only two things that are consistent. The length of the nose cap and the trigger guard. Everything else is drastically different in some cases from one rifle to the other.

So I'm sure I will have more "dilemma's" and will definitely be seeking further advice.

Thanks again to all, it is much appreciated.