Author Topic: Source for teflon shooting patches (Read 12543 times)

gumboman · « **on:** November 25, 2013, 01:13:00 AM »

Looking for a source to purchase teflon shooting patches. I have a 62 caliber barrel with a 1-72 twist and I cannot get it to shoot worth spit. My experience with this gun has been exasperating. In my desperation to get my expensive underhammer to shoot and before I retire a new rifle I want to give the teflon patches a go.

Can you forum members supply me with contact information for a teflon patch material source?

Many thanks

smylee grouch · « **Reply #1 on:** November 25, 2013, 03:44:44 AM »

Check out the classified ads in Muzzle Blasts mag.

gumboman · « **Reply #2 on:** November 25, 2013, 04:56:36 AM »

Thanks for the tip but I do not get the magazine. A membership subscription to NMLRA is on my Christmas list, but I need patches now.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #3 on:** November 25, 2013, 05:05:39 AM »

Call 330-262-5482 from 7pm-10pm EST. Not before - not after

Standing Bear · « **Reply #4 on:** November 25, 2013, 07:35:29 AM »

820-935-2801

drago · « **Reply #5 on:** November 25, 2013, 04:27:19 PM »

What depth grooves do you have? Size of ball and thickness of patches have you tried?All of this combined with charge amount varies with each type of barrel. I bet more info on the rifle and someone on this board could help you get started working up a load.

Walks with Fire · « **Reply #6 on:** November 25, 2013, 04:37:05 PM »

Are you blowing patches? Try a wad or a second patch on top of the powder then seat a patched ball. If it's a slow twist and a .62 you probably need to shoot a heavier load to get it accurate. Tell us what you are using and have tried so far.

Kermit · « **Reply #7 on:** November 25, 2013, 06:24:00 PM »

What "drago" said. A little more info might got better help. Make of barrel, type of rifling, ball size, patch material and thickness, powder brand and granulation, etc. Better help might result.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #8 on:** November 25, 2013, 06:28:19 PM »

Gumboman;

Ok, this is where this subject will take off and go the 9+ pages with everybody chiming in. I have a .50 cal. rifle with a 1 in 72" Montana cut rifled barrel. I tried everything imaginable trying to get it to shoot. I knew it would prefer fat charges, because of the slow twist, but nothing I did, would stop it from blowing patches. I ran out of patching for the gun at an open to the public event, where the public was being encouraged to experience shooting a flintlock. I decided to use the patching from my sons .45 caplock, which was so loose in the flinter that I had a hard time cutting patches at the muzzle without sliding the patch out from under the ball. A novice blackpowder shooter wanted to try a shot at a 200 yrd. gong with the rifle. I told him it would need a full charge for the shot, which was 90 grns. of 3F, as apposed to the 50 grns. we had been shooting. I told him where to hold and he drilled the gong. I tried the loose charge a couple more times and then went out and picked up the patches. They were so perfect that I could have reused them. I started using light patching made from linen, and pre-cut instead of trying to cut them at the muzzle, and the old flinter really came into its own. Give it a try. I know there will be a crowd here that will want you to load a bore size ball with a piece of tent canvas, and magic whiz bang lube, using a hydraulic short starter, but try this first. I wouldn't have tried it if I hadn't run out of patching material, but I love the easy loading, and not having to rebarrel the guns, is good too.

Hungry Horse

gumboman · « **Reply #9 on:** November 25, 2013, 07:21:25 PM »

Wow! Many thanks to all for the input. Hopefully I can find a solution from all the experienced shooters on the forum. So here we go with more details on my situation.

First, I am not a novice. Have been shooting muzzleloaders since 1982. Own 7 long rifles flint and percussion. My round ball shooters in 50, 54 and 58 calibers shoot tight consistent groups even using iron sights. My 50 cal Green Mountain barrel will shoot excellent groups with just about anything I put down it.

Now for this new gun. It is a underhammer I built. Bought the barrel and action from a gunsmith I won't name just in case the problem is with me and not the barrel.

My sight system is a 3x Malcolm Scope. Old eyes strain on iron sights.
Caliber 62.
Twist is 1-72, lands and grooves around .120"
Barrel 30 inches long with 1.5" long breech plug.

My trips to the range have been numerous, and I have experimented with these combinations.

Balls have been swaged, and cast. Cast balls from 3 different makers.
Balls are weighted to within 1 grain.
Balls have been .600' and .610. Have settled on .610 as my choice.
Sprue is up.

Patch material has been Ox-Yoke with Wonder lube in .015", .018" and .020".
Pillow ticking in .018 to .024" dry and lubed.
100% linen at .017" thickness dry and lubed.

Powder has been GOEX in 3F. Charge from 100 grains to 140 grains.
Also tried Swiss in 3F.

Bought Dutch Shultz's dry patch system. This dry patch system gave best results so far.

Tried Ox-Yoke shotgun wads over powder with patch and ball.
Tried double patch and this has given best results so far.

At the range I clean between rounds.

My best groups have been about 4 inches at 100 yards with a load of 135 grn 2f Goex, extra patch over powder, .017" 100% linen lubed with Ballistol and water diluted at 7-1 ratio. Ball was .610 cast with sprue up.

I got these results one time. Subsequent trips to the range produced larger groups. Experienced frequent flyers.

Last week went on a deer hunt here in Alabama. Took no shots at game and a good thing too. When I shot the gun to unload after a 5 day hunt, the gun missed the entire target frame measuring 40 inches by 30 inces. It was shot from a lead sled. Load was the one above that gave me the best group.

I have ordered some Teflon patches as a last ditch effort to find something that is satisfactory.

Thanks to all for the help.

gumboman · « **Reply #10 on:** November 25, 2013, 07:24:37 PM »

Gumboman again. By the way all shot patches look good when using a wad or extra patch over powder. No burn out, are completely intact and could be reused.

Have tried pre-cut and cut with patch knife after short starting.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2013, 07:51:04 PM »

Gumboman;

I fear your barrel is too short to utilize the required powder charge needed to stabilize the ball. Most of these big charges, you are firing is going out on the ground.

Hungry Horse

smylee grouch · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2013, 08:26:37 PM »

Gumboman- I dont know where you rest your barrel when you work up your loads but I have had the best results resting it on the end of the barrel on a solid rest like sand or shot bags. Lead sleds that I have seen rested the gun on the forarm which has never given me as good of results with a muzzleloader.

gumboman · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2013, 10:11:32 PM »

I had considered that the barrel length could be a factor. The breech plug is about 1.5 inches long. Plus the ball and charge are at least 2 inches in column length. Combined this leaves 26.5 inches of rifled barrel. Now the Pacific Rifle Company as well as Roger Renner in his Faeton rifle use this combo and the claims of great accuracy from both sources abound. This gun is designed is somewhat based on that.

Although I accept it is possible the full charge might not be consumed, I am not so sure the ball is not stabilized with the 1-72 twist. There are slower twist 62 caliber gun owners who claim great accuracy.

drago · « **Reply #14 on:** November 25, 2013, 10:51:24 PM »

Maybe try 2f powder in that large of a bore. I don't know what stock you have but I have heard the slim wrist styles can break in a lead sled where the stock takes all the force. I hope you find the right load.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #15 on:** November 26, 2013, 12:06:02 AM »

I fear 2F is going to burn even slower, and therefore spew even more unburned powder onto the ground. I was under the impression that the Faeton guns were gain twist, maybe I'm wrong. I think some of the reasoning for developing the gain twist was that it might allow the barrel to be shortened, and still retain the accuracy of a longer slow twist barrel. I don't know how a gain twist effects the burn rate of the charge, or if it makes any difference at all.

Hungry Horse

k varga · « **Reply #16 on:** November 26, 2013, 12:40:56 AM »

try another form of sighting system, maby the scope is part of the problem.

gumboman · « **Reply #17 on:** November 26, 2013, 03:04:46 AM »

Thanks to all for the input so far. Very good stuff. What a great forum. Invaluable.

Several things I left out of my detailed post from earlier.

Rifling depth is .012"
I should have stated 2f black powder instead of 3f. Have been meaning to try 3f however but the Swiss is stated to be premium powder and is sized like Goex 3F and that made no difference.
I know the sighting system could be a suspect and do intend to try something else. But I do have the same Malcolm scope on a bullet shooter that will cloverleaf at 100 yards with 120 grn 3f and and 360 grain lead bullet. So I have confidence the scope holds zero. Even so that is on my to do list as one more potential culprit to eliminate.

Dan · « **Reply #18 on:** November 28, 2013, 07:00:09 AM »

Couple of stray thoughts:

Nipple burned out
Ball/patch dims
Are you compressing the charge when you seat the ball?
Are you wiping damp or wet?
.012" deep rifling is fairly deep. See comment above on dims.
Your twist rate isn't the problem.
If you are shooting off bags, put one about 6" behind the muzzle, nothing under the butt.

Check your scope.

Kermit · « **Reply #19 on:** November 28, 2013, 09:20:33 AM »

What do you mean when you say "double patch?" Two thicknesses of one of your patches? What thickness?

I'm wondering if you don't have a ball/patch combo that this barrel likes. Find some thicker material, precut it, and lube with spit. Then try one thicker still. Denim? I think your barrel may be hinting that it wants a tighter fit.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #20 on:** November 28, 2013, 03:40:42 PM »

Walter Cline mentions an old man,L.G."Daddy"Moore using a double charge and double patch
as a bear hunting load. He used a flintlock as his only rifle if I remember the story correctly.

Bob Roller

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #21 on:** November 28, 2013, 09:33:12 PM »

Gumboman;

Are the mentioned manufactures also shooting .62 caliber? With the ball making just over a half turn in the length of the barrel, and the powder required for stability not likely to burn completely, accuracy could suffer.
I have a .62 cal. 1-72 twist barrel from Orion that I have been thinking about building an elk gun on, and have not proceeded simple because I haven't found anyone with a similar caliber/ twist barrel that performs the way I think it should preform. And, mine is still 36" long, not 30" like yours.

Hungry Horse

Kermit · « **Reply #22 on:** November 28, 2013, 11:08:09 PM »

HH--ream it smooth!

blaksmth · « **Reply #23 on:** November 29, 2013, 08:04:15 AM »

I have a rifle that shoots a .695 round ball I shoot 125 gr 2ff Goex and I use GI cleaning patch for a patch one side has a flannel side one side is slightly rougher to patch the ball I believe its .010 maybe.015 thick and when seat ball in muzzle I seat ball about a little over half way and cut patch around the ball then seat ball over powder.

I use water soluable machine oil as a lube and also a soft cast ball out of pure lead and I do not have any problem with burned or torn patches and if I do my part this rifle will group under 21/2 inches in 5 shots no wind mind you at 100 yards and not clean between shots off of a bench.

IMO 3FFF is too fine of powder to use in a .58 or larger rifle I think it raises the pressure rise faster and cause more fouling than the larger grain powder IMO, and if I understood your post this right is a new rifle ? it almost sounds like your rifelings are too sharp, when my dad built a new rifle we would put at least a 100 rounds through it and then see how things went then.

gumboman · « **Reply #24 on:** November 29, 2013, 05:14:40 PM »

Thanks again for the feedback from all you muzzleloaders. I will answer the questions since I am still looking for a solution.

When I say double patch I mean that I put a patch down over the powder, much like using a wad between powder and shot in a shotgun. I do this to prevent patch burn out. When I exceed 120 grn 2f powder without this double patch, the patch around the ball is burned causing random accuracy.

Nipples are new. Tried musket caps and #ll caps. Using #11 now since musket caps caused too much clogging of nipple.
Ball is .610, cast pure lead with .017" linen patch lubed with 8-1 water and ballistol. Patches are dry per Dutch Schultz system. This is a tight fit.

Some moderate compression of the charge. Nothing excessive.

Wiping with damp patch then run dry patch down between rounds.

Barrel maker says .012" deep rifling and 72 twist is ideal for .62 caliber.

I have used up to .020" Wonder lube patch which makes for a very tight fit. I have found the barrel does not like grease lube patches as wonder lube causes very large groups. Dry patches seem to do better.

As I mentioned earlier, on one trip to the range with dry patch using ballistol and water mix 1 ballistol and 8 water, I was able to get about 4 inch groups. I used .610 ball, .017 linen patch, 135 gr 2f. This I got 1 time. Since then using same load and patch/ball combo groups are 6 to 10 inches with frequent flyers. It is exasperating.

This is a hunting weapon and was intended to shoot heavy loads. I might have to try backing charges way down to under 100 grn to see what she does.

I have Walter Cline's book also and have read it dozen times at least. I think he meant Daddy Moore's double load to mean exactly what I am doing. That is to put a patch on top of the powder to protect the patch that surrounds the ball so it does not burn out.

Thanks for all the feedback.

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Author Topic: Source for teflon shooting patches (Read 12543 times)

Walks with Fire

blaksmth