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Author Topic: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!  (Read 16808 times)

Offline smallpatch

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H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« on: January 21, 2009, 05:30:55 AM »
OK, you guys have always helped me out before, so let's try it one more time.

I bought a flinter for my son-in-law a couple of years ago.  It didn't go off worth a $#@*, so he just doesn't shoot.

I decided to try to fix it.

Tried to remove the touch hole liner (assumed it was a White Lightnin')
Drilled it, tried the old easy out, and broke it off in the hole.

Turns out, it was a hardened stainless bolt.  I can't drill either the easy out, or the liner.  Even with a drill press.

To add to the whole dilemma, it's in the breechplug, so I can't get the plug out either.(the main reason I decided to remove the BP.

Any suggestions, would be greatly appreciated.



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Blacktail

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2009, 05:35:17 AM »
What kind of gun is it? Would it be feasible to cut off the end and re-breech?
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bs2

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2009, 05:41:06 AM »
Do you have an air or electric grinder.............sounds like you need a small carbide burr to remove [grind away] the easy out. One with a tapered point.
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Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2009, 05:49:30 AM »
I would look for a machine shop who could EDM that rascal out. Not the cheapest way but you'll probably have something you can work with left afterward. Look for a shop that does stud or broken tap removal.
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2009, 05:53:40 AM »
This is a complete rifle.  Cutting off the barrel is out of the question.

I guess maybe  a Dremel, with a carbide point or maybe a diamond point would work??
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2009, 05:59:09 AM »
Quote from: smallpatch on January 21, 2009, 05:30:55 AM
OK, you guys have always helped me out before, so let's try it one more time.

I bought a flinter for my son-in-law a couple of years ago.  It didn't go off worth a $#@*, so he just doesn't shoot.

I decided to try to fix it.

Tried to remove the touch hole liner (assumed it was a White Lightnin')
Drilled it, tried the old easy out, and broke it off in the hole.

Turns out, it was a hardened stainless bolt.  I can't drill either the easy out, or the liner.  Even with a drill press.

To add to the whole dilemma, it's in the breechplug, so I can't get the plug out either.(the main reason I decided to remove the BP.

Any suggestions, would be greatly appreciated.





Order some carbide tools from MSCdirect.com
The "screw machine" length is the lowest price.
They also have solid carbide center drills.
These will drill the easy out like butter, though you may need a small diameter carbide center drill to start it right. You also need a vise or way to clamp it to the drill press table, if it moves at all the carbide likely breaks.
This stuff is brittle so by a couple of each and to a size that will clean the easy out.
It could be a pipe thread and very tight in the hole. It might be locktited or epoxied in. This will require 400-450 degrees to "cook" the glue.
If pipe thread (tapered) you can get the dies to make another pipe thread vent liner this will save making it too large by having to enlarge the hole in the barrel anymore.

Dan
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2009, 06:06:56 AM »
Dan,

I have MSC's catalog.  I also have a small mill.  Holding it won't be a problem.  So far, I've ruined two center punches and 3 drill bits.

So what you're saying I need is a center drill and regular drill bit in carbide??
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bs2

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2009, 06:10:26 AM »
Quote from: smallpatch on January 21, 2009, 05:53:40 AM
This is a complete rifle.  Cutting off the barrel is out of the question.

I guess maybe  a Dremel, with a carbide point or maybe a diamond point would work??

Small diamonds......................take it to your dentist, they have some small ones. ::)

As stated above..................then put some heat to it!
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Offline KentSmith

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 06:21:01 AM »
What Dphariss said - but buy a left hand twist carbide drill, two sizes, one smaller to get a pilot hole started and a larger one to do the work.  With luck the left twist will grab and turn the easy out out.  I'd do the same with the vent.  Means you might need three bits, one to start, one to remove the easy out and one for the vent.  

Working on Harleys means lots of broken bolts and broken easy outs.  Don't use the things any more.
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2009, 06:39:45 AM »
I worked as a Tool & Die Machinist all my life. In our shop, when nothing else worked, we would use a vibrator type  engraver pencil and place the point of the graver on the outside edge of the broken off bolt, in this case a vent liner, and kind of vibrate the piece loose by pushing the actual vibrating graver in the direction you want the vent liner to move. Lots of times this last resort method worked when nothing else did. It also doesn't hurt to flood the vent liner with some good penetrating oil and let it soak for some time.

Randy Hedden

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2009, 06:45:04 AM »
Quote from: smallpatch on January 21, 2009, 06:06:56 AM
Dan,

I have MSC's catalog.  I also have a small mill.  Holding it won't be a problem.  So far, I've ruined two center punches and 3 drill bits.

So what you're saying I need is a center drill and regular drill bit in carbide??

Yes carbide will drill hardened parts, HSS steel or carbon taps. The carbide center drill (combined drill/countersink) will make starting the hole a lot easier. You can run these pretty fast too but fairly slow feed to let them cut the easyout. Taps are bad to drill due to the flutes. 4 flute miniature mills work better.
I put a fly in an original TD Springfield tumbler without annealing it with tiny carbide tools.  Like I said they are brittle. But what a lifesaver, mill or drill the broken tap to the bottom of the hole then break it out with a small hard punch. You can mill O-1 or spring stock with an replaceable insert end mill and not risk eating the cutting edges if the feed is a little off.
But if you buy any thing that takes inserts LOOK UP THE INSERT  PRICE.  TNMG is the cheapest usually and have 6 cutting edges. Some inserts are pretty pricey. TNMG on sale can be under $2 a piece.
I just made a .750+- diameter patch cutter from a cheap 7/8" hole saw from the lumberyard. Set it up in a collet in the lathe and cut the teeth off with a welded carbide threading tool making the bevel for the cutting edge at the same time. No annealing or rehardening. In a few minutes I was cutting patches.
I used to do firing pin upgrades in BP SS rifles reaming and drilling hard parts as needed with carbide.

Doing left hand in carbide and hoping it will "grab" the part is a bad idea. These are not as tough as HSS and and in my experience any "catching or grabbing" breaks the carbide. Also anything in carbide that is "special" costs....
Sorry got carried away.
Dan
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J.D.

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2009, 07:35:28 AM »
Quote from: Randy Hedden on January 21, 2009, 06:39:45 AM
I worked as a Tool & Die Machinist all my life. In our shop, when nothing else worked, we would use a vibrator type  engraver pencil and place the point of the graver on the outside edge of the broken off bolt, in this case a vent liner, and kind of vibrate the piece loose by pushing the actual vibrating graver in the direction you want the vent liner to move. Lots of times this last resort method worked when nothing else did. It also doesn't hurt to flood the vent liner with some good penetrating oil and let it soak for some time.

I have removed broken bolts and frozen liners using the same technique, but with a prick punch and a light hammer. Using the prick punch, tap punch mark near the edge of the liner. Once the punch mark is deep enough to retain the point of the punch, lower the end of the punch and drive the the liner counter clockwise to loosen.

Use light taps of the hammer in the beginning, increasing the weight of the taps as the point of the punch bites into the liner. Take care to avoid chipping out the punch mark and damaging the barrel.

Soak in Kroil or another good penetrating oil for a coupla days before you try to break it loose...the liner,  that is.  ;)

God Bless,
J.D.
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twillis

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2009, 03:47:28 PM »
I agree with Dphariss, "It could be a pipe thread and very tight in the hole. It might be locktited or epoxied in. This will require 400-450 degrees to "cook" the glue."

I would heat the area of the touchhole to "cook the glue". and then proceed.
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Offline Majorjoel

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2009, 04:19:35 PM »
I did the same thing several years ago when I was changing a worn touch hole liner on a very nice custom longrifle. I took the barrel to a very small local machine shop who took care of the problem for a twenty dollar bill. They even offered to tap and install the new liner, but being a proud do it yourselfer, I declined their added help. If you price some of these hardend drill bits, most are more than what a shop would charge to remove the trouble.
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Joel Hall

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2009, 05:23:17 PM »
Unless your time is completely free and you have absolutely nothing else to do, at which point you can spend some money on carbide drills (which will also break very nicely) and a lot of time getting this out.  Alternatively you can take it to a local machine shop with a EDM tap remover and they'll have both the broken easy out and the liner out in about half an hour with no damage to the barrel or threads.
I agree with the comment above that the liner was probably put in with a sealant.  If they used red loctite you will need to get a big hole in it to get the remains out with a fairly large easy out and then only after you heat it considerably.

The problem with many stainless steels is that they work harden quickly.  If, when you're drilling it, your drill isn't very sharp and you keep it cutting it will work harden the surface to the point where you can't drill it. 

Tom
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billd

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2009, 05:35:55 PM »
I agree with the EDM suggestion. Our shop doesn't have one so I can't offer to do it.  Carbide drills will cost as much as paying someone to do it and if you break a carbide drill in the hole you have double trouble.

Bill
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Birddog6

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2009, 07:08:02 PM »
One thing I have done to remove broken easyouts & taps is take CO2 & freeze it, then take a hard punch & shatter it. Then take it out in pieces.  BUT, if you have much sticking into the bore it may be more material than you can shatter.

However, since you are in this deep & it is a finished rifle, I think you need to call about & find a EDM machine & go that route if it is avail to you.
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Offline Brian Jordan

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 07:23:54 PM »
Bill, if you were on my side of PA I would EDM the broken tap out for you. I think that the EDM hole blaster will be the best bet without causing anymore damage to the barrel...... Just tossin' my penny's in.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 08:40:58 PM »
First. --- grease the bore with a greasy patch or you can put some shellac on a patch and run it down the bore. It will wash out later with little effort. Then put a few drops of nitric acid in the hole where the easy out is stuck. In a few minutes the easy out will become loose enough to get out. Then start over.  You can probably drill that liner with a carbide drill bit. If not it's either a diamond or you will have to heat the end of the barrel enough to take the temper out of the lines --- Red Hot. and let it cool slowly. It will not hurt the barrel to heat it red hot down at the breach. Provided it
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Offline David Veith

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 08:58:15 PM »
The last tap that I broke of that I had help removeing. Instead of a drill they used a trashed out end mill to drill it out with. Yes the end mill was real thash when we got done.
David Veith
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bs2

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2009, 01:05:01 AM »
Quote from: jerrywh on January 21, 2009, 08:40:58 PM
First. --- grease the bore with a greasy patch or you can put some shellac on a patch and run it down the bore. It will wash out later with little effort. Then put a few drops of nitric acid in the hole where the easy out is stuck. In a few minutes the easy out will become loose enough to get out. Then start over.  You can probably drill that liner with a carbide drill bit. If not it's either a diamond or you will have to heat the end of the barrel enough to take the temper out of the lines --- Red Hot. and let it cool slowly. It will not hurt the barrel to heat it red hot down at the breach. Provided it

Try the nitric acid first.........................[then] a small slitting wheel on the dremel, try to cut a slot for a screw driver, radius the end of the driver to match the slot.............[then] grind the slot deeper with a carbide tipped burr..........fine point. [if needed]..................then add heat.

Last resort

Can you drive the easy out thru the vent? You may have to use a long rod, down thru the barrel to snap off any easy-out sticking into the bore. Then with a stubby pin punch, hammer the easy-out thru the vent..............might want to use heat. Concentrated flame is best, I have a small butane solder gun that that has a small flame.............wont turn big parts red, but works on small stuff.

I have a set of DRILL-OUT Power Extractors http://www.amazon.com/Drill-Out-Power-Extractor-7017P/dp/B00006690T..........slightly better than a easy-out.

 I prefer the square, straight grove easy-out, not the spiral twist ones.............the straight ones seem to be stronger.

Best of LUCK!
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WV_Mountaineer

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2009, 01:15:25 AM »
Am wondering if enough available to weld another piece to the ez out for a handle.  It has worked in other situations.
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2009, 02:08:14 AM »
OK, I was able to break of the time inside the bore.  I still am looking at about a 1/4" of stainless bolt holding that easy out.

Jerry,  I don't have nitric acid.  Will pool acid work??  Will it eat the extractor before the stainless liner??

I'm sort of inclined to go this way as opposed to the carbid bits.

We're looking at about $75 just to buy a carbide center drill, and a carbide bit to drill them out.

Then I still have to extract that POS after that.
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cal.43

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2009, 02:35:35 AM »
as other said before, use a coolingspray and the a punch with a hammer to break  the easyout or have the luck and the liner gets free. If that donīt work use the EDM it would be in the end cheaper than buy a lot of toolings.
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Offline Brian

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Re: H-E-L-L-L-L-P!!!
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2009, 02:38:31 AM »
Small patch,

"Pool Acid" is (I think) usually about a 40% dilution of sulphuric acid.  Not sure if that would cut it or not.  Jerry would likely know.

I have purchased nitric acide from pharmacies in the past.  If you start phoning around you should be able to locate some.  If you tell them you only need a teaspoon full (at most) they might give you some.  Maybe a high school chemistry lab would help you out.

It's nasty stuff - so watch yourself.  And don't breath the fumes.
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