Author Topic: Rip teeth and turning blades  (Read 5250 times)

Offline Elnathan

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Rip teeth and turning blades
« on: November 27, 2013, 04:13:22 AM »
A question for you guys who use a bandsaw for cutting out stocks - do rip teeth work well for this application? How well do they work for cutting curves that go across the grain in general?

The reason I ask is because I have a 28" bow-saw blade with rip teeth (about 5 point, IIRC) that I bought several years ago intending to make a frame saw for general ripping. The blade is about 1 1/2" wide. When I bought it, I did not have a rip saw at all, but since then I have acquired a very nice 1920s-vintage no-name panel saw, which has made a good general-purpose rip saw, so my original purpose in buying it is now moot.

OTOH, since I do not have a bandsaw, I have been thinking about reducing the width of the blade to around 1/2" or so and making something like a felloe saw, which would be very useful for profiling stock blanks, particularly the curve underneath the lock area. I think that rip teeth would work for this, but I am not sure.


« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 04:15:15 AM by Elnathan »
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2013, 05:10:06 AM »
Anytime you're cutting more or less with the grain, you want a rip file job. Crosscut teeth are painfully slow. This is worth a read:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

galamb

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2013, 05:11:50 AM »
I use, almost exclusively for cutting stocks, a 3/4" 4 hook blade and find it will follow all but the tightest curves.

I tried skip tooth blades and ended up burning the wood, didn't "clear" well in thick wood  (I pretty much always cut soft maple for my rifle hobby and a lot of African Mahogany to feed my boat building adventures).

Tried thinner blades and they sometimes wandered badly even with maximum tension. So for me I'm happy right now with a 3/4" 4 hook - plan on trying a 1" when I wear this one out.

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2013, 05:21:00 AM »
You are going to need a 3/8" band saw (or bow/frame saw) blade to go around all the curves.   However, 1/2" might be better for the long rip cuts.  About the only true cross cut on a stock is the butt.   Everything else is more a rip cut than anything else.    You could certainly use a good, straight, hand rip saw to cut your stock out of the blank.    I would suggest that you turn the stock over every couple of inches if you use a hand saw for ripping to minimize drift in one direction.    The key to the efficient use of hand saws is to use the proper number of teeth per inch for the material being cut.   For a stock blank, you are going to want to use something in the 4-6 tpi range.  A finer cut might be in order when you get ready to trim the sides of the forearm.  I have a 5 1/2 tpi (D-7) and 10 tpi (D-23) 26" ripsaws.   I have an 8 tip (D-23) 26" crosscut.     You should also touch up the teeth before starting.   Maple is very hard.  

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 06:40:04 AM »
Spend some time learning how to properly join, file and set your hand saws. There are some good books available that teach you how. A good sharp hand rip saw will surprise you how quick you can cut. I find it quicker some times to use the hand tools than to set up the power tools, plus a lot quieter with less dust. Line up your shoulder with the saw and keep your eyes sighted so you only see the back of the saw, and you will saw pretty straight. This comes like second nature after a little practice.
I like to remember how carpenters worked a couple generations ago. No power tools. No precut lumber. No pre hung doors. All hinge and lock mortises hand cut. No pre made trusses. Maintained their own tools. Next time you are in a really nice old house admiring the fancy trim and millwork remember this.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Kermit

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2013, 07:26:36 AM »
The first carpenter I worked with was 67 years old (in 1970). He told me of the first job site he got sent to as a 15 year old apprentice. He was shown to a stack of rough full dimension 8/4 Doug fir, saw horses, and a 4 1/2 point rip saw. Two weeks of 10 hour days 6 days a week later he got to move on to his next apprenticeship task.

He knew how to keep a saw sharp. And why.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Keb

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 05:10:25 PM »
Woode bought a saw. He said this was the best saw he ever saw that would saw wood like this saw would saw wood.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 07:50:58 PM »
Good topic.  

I didn't know much about hand-tools and wood before I attended a timberframe contruction workshop.  There I learned how to mark and cut and fit green lumber with good precision (for wood--down to the 16th's, whereas i'd "carpentered" to the quarter-inch before)

SO i bought a sawblade holding fixture and some files, but then I've found the traveling saw sharpening man...he's a bargain!  

But now I do nearly ALL my woodcutting with hand saws and chisels properly sharp.  SO when I needed to rip a lot of wood off my rifle (and before i discovered the farriers rasp/found my draw knives), I used my 8pt X-cut saw.

To echo Mark's words above, Maple ARE hard! ;)  I made some boo boos ripping with the hand saw, but mostly from fatigue!

I'll do it again, but I'll have a ripping tooth count and set before I do.  Thanks for info.


« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 07:59:39 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2013, 02:59:32 AM »
I used my 8pt X-cut saw.

Wade, I feel your pain! :o
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

whetrock

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2013, 07:58:35 PM »
There are some concise but very good instructions on sharpening saws, including instruction on top jointing, setting, filing, and side jointing in _Farm Blacksmithing_.  It's some excellent info if you have dull tools, or feel the need to make a saw from scratch, recondition an old saw, convert a rip to a cross-cut, combo to a rip, etc.

Drew, J. M. 2000. (original 1901). Farm Blacksmithing: practical hints for handy-men. The Lyons Press.

Available for order online. Cheap paperback reprint of the original text.
(The guy who designed the cover labeled a drawing of a turn screw [screw driver] as a file. Most of you can ignore that, I’m sure…  and the rest of you (perfectionists) can just mark it out and re-label it, like I did.  ;) )
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 08:01:20 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2013, 06:37:57 AM »
Wade, I've got you beat - the last time I cut out a stock I used a 10 point crosscut, with a lousy handle to boot! Took me about a week...  :o


Guys, thanks for your replies. However, I am not asking about rip teeth in general nor about how to sharpen saws, but how well rip teeth work on a turning blade, which by necessity will not always be cutting along the grain. I already have a standard handsaw with rip teeth, as well as a turning blade with crosscut teeth for my bowsaw, the issue is that I happen to have a spare rip blade that has been laying around for years and I am trying to figure out the best way to use it.

Basically, I am trying to figure out whether to make it a narrow blade like the one in the saw at top, or a wider blade such as the saw at the bottom:

Scan from Garret Hack's book on handtools.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 06:49:48 AM by Elnathan »
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

whetrock

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2013, 09:34:38 PM »
Great pictures.

Short answer:
Yes, a rip saw will cut turns. As with any saw, how fast it turns is mostly a matter of width of kerf in relation to width of the blade.

Long answer:
The “residential grade” band saw blades I am familiar with are all ground as rip saws. These are general purpose wood cutting blades, not re-sawing blades. Such blades are set up for turning, so they have a lot of set relative to the thickness of the metal of the blade, and they also have a fairly small blade width. For example, the 3/8 inch blade I’m currently running has approximately .01 metal thickness, and approximately .025 inch thickness as measured in the set. That 1:2.5 body-to-kerf ratio means it cuts a pretty wide kerf in relation to the width of the back of the blade. And with only 3/8 of blade width, it turns fairly easily in that kerf. I assume that that kind of ratio is pretty typical for a general purpose blade. It yields standard turn radii such as the following. (This is just a standard chart, available in half a dozen places on the web and on the back of every Delta band saw blade packaging.)

Blade width -- minimum cut radius
1 inch -- 7 inch
3/4 inch -- 5 1/2 inch
1/2 inch -- 2 1/2 inch
3/8 inch -- 1 3/8 inch
1/4 inch -- 5/8 inch
3/16 inch -- 5/16 inch
1/8 inch -- 3/16 inch

In contrast, a rip saw that has been set up for using as a hand tool is not likely to have the same ratios. Such a tool will have been designed just for making a straight cut, rather than for turning a radius. It is most likely going to have a blade body of thicker material than you find on a most modern band saw blades, and it is likely to have a body to kerf ratio something like 1:1.6, rather than the 1:2.5 mentioned above. What that means is that it is set up to run straight, and so it may only turn on a very large radius. But that’s just talking general principles. Without a having a lot more info, it’s hard to predict what the minimum radius of cut will be for the rip saw blade you are asking about.

It is possible to reduce the minimum radius of cut by grinding down the width of the blade. But again, there is no need (and no advantage) to grinding it down beyond what is necessary for the minimum radius you intend to cut.
It is also possible to reduce the minimum radius of cut by adding set to the teeth, thus increasing the width of the kerf. Of course, if you go that route, you are also getting into a more serious version of the saw sharpening game.

In general, you want to leave the blade as wide as possible (but strike a balance, so as to avoid loosing too much to friction and getting into hassles with binding, etc.). There are several reasons for this, and some are especially important for a hand tool.
(1) A wider blade generally provides a smoother cut. That’s because the back of the blade trails along behind as the teeth make the cut, and that trailing body basically acts as a long straight rudder, keeping the teeth pointed straight ahead. The more narrow the blade, the shorter that rudder. Accordingly, when sawing any line or radius greater than the minimum radius, the blade can have a tendency to wander back and forth. And that creates an irregular line, rather than a smooth cut.
(2) A wide blade simply provides more material, and thus more strength. In general, a wide blade can be stretched tighter than a narrow blade. A blade that is stretched tight is not as likely to follow the grain of the wood. And it is also easier to make a correction in direction with a blade that is stretched very tight. A loose blade is more likely to follow the path of least resistance through the grain, and it can be difficult to pull it back on line without bending and breaking it in the process.
(3) A wide blade provides more material for sharpening. I own a couple of antique bow saws and a felloe saw. The blades on those saws show themselves to have been sharpened many, many times. One has been sharpened so many times as to have lost about 1/3 of its original width (as estimated by the width at the pin holes). A slightly dull band saw blade will still cut, provided you are don’t feed it too quickly and it has a large enough motor pushing it! But a dull bow saw or felloe saw will be an absolute pain to use. It is only reasonable to use if it is kept razor sharp. The old carpenters knew this.

The radius of cut you need for the area under the lock of a long rifle will vary according to the style. An early VA rifle I’m working on now has a radius under the lock of around 12 inches. An Isaac Haines I have as a radius under the lock of around 10 inches. Would your rip saw make a turn with a 10 inch radius with the blade at 1 ½ inch width as it is right now? No way to guess. Would it make a tighter turn after being ground down to 1 inch, or ½ inch as you suggested? Certainly. But it seems to me that there is no good reason to grind it down without first testing it out to see what it can do as is.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 01:47:59 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2013, 06:29:23 AM »
Thanks, Whetrock. Lots to think about.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

whetrock

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 06:33:02 AM »
Hey Elnathan,

Here's a link you might want to see. It's about building a larger frame felloe saw. Note in particular the comments about trying to recycle a bandsaw blade, as contrasted with posts later on in the thread about other thicker, wider blade materials. You are starting with heavier blade material, so I think you are ahead of the game.

http://frontiercarpenter.blogspot.com/2012/09/felloe-saw.html
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 06:34:06 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

whetrock

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Re: Rip teeth and turning blades
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2013, 04:22:34 PM »
Here’s another link that may be of interest to guys interested in making their own saws. This one is to “Antique tool & machinery descriptions & pictures from the 1897 Charles Strelinger & Company Catalog”. It’s a tremendous resource, kind of like an old tool version of the Dixie Gunworks catalogue, full of really helpful tidbits and info. These two links are to a page on felloe saw blades and another on sharpening. (By the way, in traditional terminology, the blade on such a saw is called a "web", so that's what you see in this tool catalogue.)

http://www.old-woodworking-tools.com/index/pages/072.htm

http://www.old-woodworking-tools.com/index/pages/069.htm

Here’s the link to the main page, which includes an index. You can jump to any section by clicking on the index:
http://www.old-woodworking-tools.com/index.htm
Once on a page, if you want to see more, you can click “previous” or “next” to turn the pages. The main body shows the text. Scroll down to see the original catalogue, with images.

Granted, the tools in this catalogue are relatively “modern” compared to our general interest in 18th c technology. But I find this kind of thing is still helpful, esp when combined with some other old tool resources and 18th c tool catalogues. When taken together with 18th c catalogues, this sort of info from the 19th c can provide a bridge of sorts, explaining some details that would otherwise have been lost entirely. Most books about old tools are written by and for tool collectors, rather than for people who intend to recreate and use such tools. And so some of the little details can be hard to track down, and hard to interpret. Every resources counts!

« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 04:26:57 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »