Author Topic: Building a chunk gun  (Read 15530 times)

Offline Kermit

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Re: Building a chunk gun
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2013, 06:48:37 AM »
Dennis is right. Underhammers need to go elsewhere. It's in the rules. The blog he suggests is not a forum, however. Any forum suggestions are welcome. Anyplace for non-sidelock muzzloaders like slug guns, RB bench guns, and other NMLRA oddities? No bad feelings at all. I just need some helpful direction.

By the bye, I own two of the unspeakable guns that were listed for sale on this forum.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

jwiant

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Re: Building a chunk gun
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2013, 03:27:06 PM »
I understand this is a traditional sidelock forum.  I have great interest in building traditional sidelocks.  At the same time I am working on several nontraditional underhammers because of there simplicity and economy.  I am not a professional builder and I am trying to gain skills and experience before I move on to nicer more expensive guns.  I love this forum and it is most helpful in any problem I run into.  I don't want to offend anyone or break the rules, so is it alright to post in "over the back fence"?

Offline Kermit

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Re: Building a chunk gun
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2013, 06:44:19 PM »
As I understand the rules, they apply in Over The Fence as well.

From the site's mission statement:

"American Longrifles is the more accurate term for the class of uniquely American firearms better known as Kentucky or Pennsylvania rifles.  While the focus of this site is the American long rifle in all its incarnations,  it is also a home for all those crafts persons preserving a bit of the past by building traditional muzzle loading sporting firearms and their accoutrements. The mission of AmericanLongrifles.com is to promote and support the art and craft of building historically accurate long rifles, related firearms, and accoutrements of the highest quality and artistic merit."

First item under Allowable Topics:

"The building or recreation of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms that would have been made or used in North America between 1607 and 1898."

The stated rules seem to get strained a bit with military arms and pistols on a site intended and named to be for RIFLES. Smoothbores and military arms seem to fit under "related" arms and topics. The creators and administrators appear to have drawn a line at sidelocks, so firearms that ignite the main charge through either the top or the bottom of the barrel or the rear through the breech plug are disallowed. Direct ignition by mule ear or sideslapper locks are, however, apparently allowed. I don't know what to make of side-by-sides or swivel barrels. Maybe they are "related."

These appear to have been allowed, adding to my confusion:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28903.0
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28933.0

Underhammers were made in the USA before 1898, and many could certainly be said to be "sporting," so maybe they are nontraditional. I'm not sure.

Anyone want to tell me whether a patent breech ignites the charge from the side or the rear? I guess it's the location of the lockwork on the side that is the determining factor. I hope this might be helpful, and others can offer corrections to any misunderstandings or misinterpretations I may have included.

Thanks for any clarification.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 07:31:01 PM by Kermit »
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Building a chunk gun
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2013, 07:33:48 PM »
Dan,
Good comments about going for it. I have actually built 2 longrifles, both using partial pre-carved stock blanks. The first was truly butt ugly, but shoots, and the second showed some improvement. Your advice to keep trying is a good one.

Kermit,
I have to agree with you that the underhammer is just another traditional form of longrifle. Remember, there are known examples of "flint underhammers". Are they to be excluded also?
Mark
Mark

Offline Kermit

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Re: Building a chunk gun
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2013, 07:35:47 PM »
The key word seems to be "sidelocks," Mark.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Building a chunk gun
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2013, 07:40:19 PM »
Not trying to be obstinate, or stir the pot, but mule ears should work then. They're just misaligned underhammers!
Mark
Mark

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Building a chunk gun
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2013, 07:53:04 PM »
The underhammer was a great innovation, at least by the numbers made.  A lot of slug guns and other target rifles were built as UHs and pistols and even sporting rifles. I don't particularly like them, other than maybe as slug guns. But this is simply personal taste. It has nothing to do with historical FACT. Being simple in design they were likely more reliable than many sidelocks with cheap import locks and the drum and nipple breech. They were far more likely to be made in some shop in America than by some Gin soaked lock filer working for pennies in Birmingham (Read W. Greener).
While the lower UH is most likely primarily a target rifle the other just as obviously is not. Its a "sporting gun". Weird? Yeah, to my eye. But it was made and used in the ML era apparently enough to have a globe front sight added at some point. Would I make one of these? Nope. I did one UH years ago as a bullet rifle.





So while some UHs are pretty strange looking (I have seen some pretty strange looking FLs that some here congratulated the maker for "breaking from tradition", or some other such liberal arts school ceramics class nonsensical verbiage) the UHs  are still a traditional percussion gun and were widely used in the east. It is impossible to have a discussion of the percussion system and not include them.  Yet there are rules that ban them from matches that allow "traditional" percussion rifles. Or ban any underhammer that does not use the TG as the mainspring ::)  ???
Seems to be no reason for this. Until we understand that sometimes the rule makers for the match are fearful of being out shot. So when I am told that the Wyoming State ML Championship does not allow UH guns I wonder how well informed the decision makers were and secondly who has appeared at the matches in the past with an UH and perhaps gave everyone a shooting lesson. And with typical spite or ignorance the rule making "victims" blame the firearm ??? So one can show up with a barely traditional appearing sidelock rifle and compete but if another was to arrive with an ORIGINAL underhammer they are not allowed to shoot.

The Underhammer is a traditional percussion action that was widely used in some areas of America by probably 1830-1840. That's right folks Numrich Arms did not invent them in the 1960s.  I suspect that a number came west with the "49ers" and those headed for Oregon. Since this is the case I see no reason to ban them or put them in a specific forum, we have not been overrun with them after all. If there were long discussion of them every week then it would be justified as a separate field of interest but I don't see that level of interest here.
They are a part of our shooting heritage just like any sidelock or side slapper lock percussion or the FL for that matter.  So I would like to know what the reason is for their "having to go" other than someone don't like their looks. If we use "ugly" as a criteria then there are flintlock guns that appear on websites that at the very least should be ostracized or heavily criticized but are not because it might hurt someone's feelings that people here know personally, or so I assume.
So lighten up a little. While the rifle in the first photo above (from the BBHS Cody Wy) is not what I would call typical, the Undehammer in general is a traditional American firearm, I suspect 10s of thousands were made if we count pistols.  Discussing this type action is not like discussing plastic saboted JHP pistol bullets driven by Blackhorn 209.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

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Re: Building a chunk gun- good point!
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2013, 08:13:37 PM »
Probably should stay out of this as a first poster, but Dphariss comments ring true.  Spent several years in New England and every local historical society had an abundance of underhammer buggy rifles for display ( of the D. Hilliard style.)  I believe they were as common as our midwestern halfstock in that time and place.  Slug gun shoots at Canal Fulton have an "original" match and many if not most of the rifles from the "great makers" that show up are underhammers.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Building a chunk gun
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2013, 08:39:56 PM »
I guess trying to be nice just doesn't work!
This thread is locked.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a chunk gun
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2013, 10:46:21 PM »
Our art museum has an OVERhammer rifle,fullstock.
Push the tail end of the hammer DOWN to cock it.

Bob Roller