Author Topic: Shooting Original Rifles  (Read 10780 times)

Offline heelerau

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Shooting Original Rifles
« on: December 22, 2013, 02:57:38 PM »
 G'day, you blokes,
                               just wondering if you find many original rifles in good enough condition to continue shooting them? I have seen some real corkers on this site.
    I guess some of you would not shoot them for collector reasons,which is fine.  I  always  have been a bit of a Philistine and shot original rifles , muskets and shot guns here down under.
     Just wondering what sort of accuracy you may have got.

Cheers and Merry Christmas from Down Under


Gordon
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2013, 03:27:59 PM »
I have one that Jim Goodieon freshed out for me. Only marking on the gun is Remington on the bottom of barrel. It shoots quite good, thanks to Jim's freshing job, and I have taken several deer with it over the years.  45 cal shoots a 445 ball with 60 gr. swiss 2f. I have limited my shots to about 70 yards or less on deer.

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 03:31:09 PM »
If they are deemed safe to shoot, I'd shoot them.  They were built to be shot, so why not?
Snuffer
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Carbine

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 04:22:28 PM »
While not long rifles,  many of the folks in the North-South Skirmish Association (N-SSA.org) compete with original Muskets, Carbines and revolvers.

zimmerstutzen

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 04:24:37 PM »
I have one, that is not a particularly valuable original.  The barrel was cut down a few times before I got it and it is about 42 caliber.   It has a drum and nipple set up with a tiny hole drilled into the bottom of the drum.  I heard old timers would sometimes do that, but having my hand that close to that vent during discharge is worrisome.

I do shoot an old hog gun.   62 caliber, 19 pound monster.  I have shot it in 100 yd cross stick matches with open sights and kept a 7 shot group under 2 inches.  That club shot 7 shots and counted the best 5 for score.  

Offline heelerau

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 05:44:47 PM »
Zimmershutzen, how come a small hole in the bottom of the drum?

cheers

gordon
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 06:05:48 PM »
  I've always heard that a small hole in the drum vents air that is trapped between the cap and the charge. Supposed to make for faster ignition. And maybe it does.
                                     Dan

Offline Gene Carrell

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2013, 06:14:46 PM »
I've an original Benson (WV) caplock about 30cal that I squirrel hunt with every year. That is what it was built for. Shoots one ragged hole at 25yds.
Gene

ottawa

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 06:47:17 PM »
I have an origanal A. Ager rifle in .32 shoots well with 35grs of fff goex clover leafs at 25 yrds
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 05:07:37 PM by ottawa »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2013, 08:12:10 PM »
 I have mixed feelings on this subject. I do think many originals are allowed to rust away, because they aren't shot and cleaned regularly. On the other hand just who makes the call, on what is safe to fire, and what is not, is very troubling to me. I've seen old originals on the firing line that were questionable at best, just because some nimrod decided it was safe to shoot. Even many modern gunsmiths are a shaky on what is, and is not, safe on a muzzleloader.
 As for the vent hole in the powder drums, I have never seen one that I could honestly say I knew was drilled during the working life of the rifle. The  origins of this I believe is the back pages of the old Dixie Gunworks catalogs. They recommended this, back when they were selling a lot of the brass Italian caps, that were a little undersized, and tended to seal the nipple pretty tightly, without splitting, to let the compressed air escape. Leaking any more fire out of any muzzleloader than is necessary to make it function is dangerous in my book. And having to guess where the shooter next to you drilled the hole is not my idea of fun.

                 Hungry Horse

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2013, 08:39:17 PM »
I have shot my original 14ga Brit proofed scatter gun. A well known and respected builder checked it for me as he did a 1950s Resley .48 cal 20 pound bench gun using an original Tower musket lock.

Best target w the Resley to date is 49xx at 100. Load is 120gr FFg w a .475 ball.
TC
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Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2013, 12:22:09 AM »
My primary emphasis is based on Ohio made ML's, the collecting and the shooting of them. I feel that if a rifle is determined to be in proper condition there is no harm in shooting them, within reason. There is no reason to load one up like you are shooting an elephant, you are only putting hles in a piece of paper, or a tin can. About 7-8 years ago we began an annual shoot for original Ohio made ML's, we also welcome contemporary Ohio mades, and have had good success with the project. Each year we get between 15-20 originals and a number of contemporaries. Given the correct circumstances, and good common sense, these old boys and girls deserve the chance to speak again. Happily I can say that there are no rifles in my collection that can't be shot. That includes arms that span the gamut from boys rifles to offhand target rifles to original chunk guns and old working rifles. Have fun and enjoy what you have but be smart about it.
Mark
Mark

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2013, 01:38:58 AM »
My question about this topic and the reason I have not shot mine is that I am concerned that the
concussion on the 150 year old skinny dried out wrist might be enough to break it.  Any thoughts
about this?
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2013, 02:44:01 AM »
The wood in the rafters of my shop stabilizes at 7.5 % Moisture Content.  The only way to get it drier is to put in an oven and who'd be crazy enough to try that?  Now, becoming brittle with age is another thing, but drier...I doubt it.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2013, 03:14:10 AM »
I dont worry about mine when I shoot as the barrel is 1 & 3/16+ thick and only a 45 cal. therefore the gun is quite heavy and doesnt generate much recoil. I also give it a rubdown once a year with boiled linseed oil in hopes that it wont dryout anymore if it has indeed dried out much at all in the last 150 years.

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2013, 03:18:23 AM »
My primary emphasis is based on Ohio made ML's, the collecting and the shooting of them. I feel that if a rifle is determined to be in proper condition there is no harm in shooting them, within reason. There is no reason to load one up like you are shooting an elephant, you are only putting hles in a piece of paper, or a tin can. About 7-8 years ago we began an annual shoot for original Ohio made ML's, we also welcome contemporary Ohio mades, and have had good success with the project. Each year we get between 15-20 originals and a number of contemporaries. Given the correct circumstances, and good common sense, these old boys and girls deserve the chance to speak again. Happily I can say that there are no rifles in my collection that can't be shot. That includes arms that span the gamut from boys rifles to offhand target rifles to original chunk guns and old working rifles. Have fun and enjoy what you have but be smart about it.
Mark

I like this! :)
Snuffer
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2013, 07:08:29 AM »
I spent 23 years working original and repro Civil War Era Muskets, Carbines and Revolvers at the Spring and Fall National Championships at the North South Skirmish Association. I was around or part of the US International Muzzleloading Team for many years, including being the Team Armourer at two World Championships where many originals were and still are shot.  I’ve owned both an original .36 cal. Percussion rifle and Swiss .41 Cal. “Federal” Rifle I used to shoot and shot some originals my best friend in life used to own – including some Flint and Percussion Hall Rifles with the notable exception I did not DARE to even think of firing the original “Civilian Model” Hall Flint rifle he owned.  

In 1996 at the World Championships as the US Team Armourer, I was handed a superb original Percussion Jaeger rifle the wife of the Team Captain of the Swiss Team was shooting in the championships.  It would not hold half cock at all and barely held full cock.  When I got inside the lock it looked like some idiot with a SNAG grinder ground it to heck and that infuriated me because the quality of the lock was superb.  Took me 4 ½ hours to fix it by hand and I told them while it would get them through the match, they needed to take it to a real gunsmith in Switzerland and have a new tumbler and sear made for it or the original parts welded up and this time PROPERLY cut and fitted.  Well, the Lady shot the rifle in the Championships and WON the Gold Medal in the Ladies 100 meter prone, original flint rifle match.  Needless to say it was great for “International Relations” with the Swiss, though I wasn’t sure the ladies on the U.S. Team would ever forgive me as one got beat by the Swiss Lady and only took the Silver Medal.  Grin.  

Heck, I almost CHOKED when I was handed an original   and GORGEOUS saw handled, half stock flintlock dueling/target pistol by the Captain of the French International Team to see if I could repair it at the 1998 World Championships at Wedgnok, UK.  Then I looked carefully at the inscription on top of the barrel and it read “Nicolaus Boutet.”  My jaw DROPPED and I looked at the French Team Captain and his Interpreter and pointed to the pistol and asked, “ Nicholaus Boutet, le Armourer to NAPOLEAN?”  They both shouted “Oui, Oui !!”  Then my heart almost stopped.  I shakily asked what it was worth and the Interpreter apologized for not being sure of the exchange rate from Francs to Pounds to Dollars, but it would have been around $ 75,000.00 to $90,000.00 then.

 I told them I wasn’t sure if I could fix it, but I would see what I could do.    I got inside that pistol and it looked like the SAME idiot with a SNAG grinder screwed up this pistol as the one who had messed up the Swiss Team Captain’s Wife’s Rifle, two years before.  (God help me what I might have done to that Idiot who screwed up those guns had he been at either World Championship.)  Took me over 6 hours to fix it by hand and I told them I could only guarantee it for about 25 shots.  A few days later as I was “walking the line” to let the US shooters know I was there in case they needed me and that did give them more confidence, I was encircled with a small mob of Frenchmen laughing, congratulating me and kissing me on the cheeks.  I could not understand a word they were saying when finally I saw our Team Captain.  I asked him what the hubbub was all about and he told me the French Team Captain had placed 7th in the Original Flint Pistol match.  I looked at him and said, “Gee, all this for SEVENTH place?”  He laughed and told me no French Shooter had EVER done that well before and that’s why they were so happy.  I asked him to also tell the French Team Captain to get that pistol to a real gunsmith back home who could weld up and fix or replace his tumbler and sear and suggested they use that Idiot with a SNAG grinder as a “live target” for a running target match.  

Neither of the N. Boutet Flint Pistol nor the Original Percussion Jaeger rifle had a fly in its tumbler.  The years I had spent doing “trigger jobs” on all the U.S. Civil War locks that also did not have flys in their tumblers was actually an advantage for me.  Actually, working some of the cheapest foreign repro locks was of great advantage.

There are two things about firing original guns I suggest to consider.  First, even when people are careful and do handle and clean them well, you can’t help but wear them more than just preserving them.  You are risking damaging or even losing an original piece to history.  Therefore, the more rare/valuable/important to history the gun is, the less likely I would be to shoot it.  Second, I would have them inspected by someone competent to work on them and inspect them.  I know some folks don’t do it or have it done, but I suggest pulling the breech plug to ensure it is good and really inspecting the barrel closely with the breech plug out.  

Oh, in at the 1996 World Championships, I believe it was your Australian Team Captain who won the Gold Medal in I think the Rigby Rifle Match.  (If it wasn’t the Team Captain, it was a member of the Australian Team.)   A few of the newer Australian Team Members were a bit surprised how much we Americans were making of congratulating him “as if he was one of our own Team Members” that night in the hotel both our Teams stayed at.  One Australian couple asked me about it and I told them we always got along great with the Australian Team.  The Gold Medal Winner heard it and commented, “We and the Yanks have much in common.  Both the Yanks and us had ancestors thrown out of England as scum and criminals, yet our ancestors wound up doing so much better than in the old country and they can’t stand it.”  He was smiling broadly while he said it.  

Gus
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 07:10:19 AM by Artificer »

Offline heelerau

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2013, 01:45:41 PM »
Gus I suspect the team captain was Kim Atkinson from the Adelaide Black Powder Muzzle Loading club. An he is right,  Yanks and Aussies seem to get along well. I was made most welcome when visiting your shores some years ago, and hope to visit again soon.
   I have found the feel and balance of my original English sb shotgun beats the $#*! out of any Pedersoli and the like. My Pat 53Enfield the same, nicer than my PH Navy Rifle which has been my regular range rifle for 30 years.  I only use these guns occasionally and they are of no particular historical interest unlike some of the stuff you have handled.   Just nice to have them in servicable order and use now and again.


Cheers

Gordon
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Offline Artificer

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2013, 04:44:23 AM »
Gordon,

Yes it may have been or probably was Kim Atkinson I was referring to, though I have to admit I remember more of the Australian Team members talking about the Adelaide Black Powder Muzzle Loading club more.  Funny what one remembers more clearly.

I agree the Pedersoli and NA sb shotguns were too heavy and did not balance well.   As I understand it, even though they could have made the barrels thinner and close to or the same as original barrels due to stronger barrel steels, they chose not to for liability concerns.  So they wind up with clunky guns that have not been popular.

I lost track of how many Euroarms and NA (both made by Eurorarms though Navy Arms had the ones they brought in to this country just marked differently)  P1853’s through P1861”s I did trigger jobs and other work on.  I can state they were a definite step up from many of the poor quality Zouave and Mississippi Rifle locks, but that’s about it.  They did not come close to the quality of original or REAL Parker Hale made Enfields.  Working the real ones or PH ones were a dream, just as working on other original guns. 

Amusing story about a PH P1853 barrel.  One shooter was walking around with an original P1853 he had purchased, but the barrel had been taken off long ago and misplaced or lost.  He asked if a PH barrel would fit and we told him we didn’t know, but would try.  Well, with a good squeeze by hand, it popped into place just like any original barrel.  We tightened the tang screw, tightened the band screws and off he went to range to try it out.  He came by a few hours later saying it shot as well as original barrels and was well pleased.  We had heard PH went to the Tower of London and borrowed an original set of gages for the P1853 and precisely copied them and made their rifles to those gages, but we were still surprised just how exactly PH made them to original gages and specifications.

Gus

dagner

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2013, 08:38:31 AM »
 our local black powder gun builder bob faiver  freshes  out thethe barrel the old way with single cutter.just like his grandfather and father did.he still has his grand fathers hand rifling machine ,in upper 80s and still going strong. checks out drums nipples threads etc .at their gimmer club their a a great collection of fine old rifles and shot guns  still being shot at the matches.still drooling ove quite a few of them

Offline heelerau

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2013, 02:08:28 PM »
Gus,
      you are right, PH did in fact borrow the gauges from the Tower of London and the parts are pretty inter changable, I had been told the barrels though might not fit. I have fitted an original lock into my PH and it fitted the mortice quite well, I have not tried any other parts. I had thought to see about a PH Pat 53 barrel for my 3rd Mod Pat 53 but they seem as rare as rocking horse poo. I found out about Bobby Hoyt and have spoken to him about a reline but have yet to get around to sending it to him due to difficultys fathoming our down under customs regs.  Kim you could not miss he is about 35 stn and a big red beard !! The Parker Hales are a not as fine shaped in the lock panels and thicker through the wrist and comb.


Cheers Gordon
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Offline Artificer

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2013, 09:50:32 PM »
Gordon,

By your description of Kin, yep, he was the one who won the Gold Medal in 1996 and I believe I remember it was Australia’s first Gold Medal in that competition?   It was a rousing good time that night in the impromptu party in the car park right outside the Hotel in Coventry where both our teams stayed. 

I am no where near the expert that some of our NSSA folks are on P1853’s through 1861’s.  I know the Tower Rifles and I think the London Armory Rifles were made on the Interchangeable System, while other ones were not.  I think the 1861 versions of the P1853 had buttstocks shortened by about an inch over the earlier “long butt stock” ones.  So stocks made on the Interchangeable System differed noticeably from the Non Interchangeable pattern rifles. 

While PH was making their Enfields, we often used PH parts to fix original locks and guns.  If the original gun was from the Interchangeable System, it required little to no fitting.  But after PH quit making their guns, we went back to using original parts to fix original guns and even PH guns.  At the Arms Faire at the World Championships at Wedgnok in I thinki it was 1996,  I blew all my cash on buying a large quantity of what was some of the last PH parts in England at the time. 

Bobby Hoyt is almost a genius at relining and restoring barrels.  I’ve lost track of how many Rifle Muskets and Smith Carbine barrels he has relined.  One of the most intriguing jobs he did was on a friend;s original Harpers Ferry M1855 Rifle (2 Band) barrel.   It had been cut short by about 4 inches and reamed out smooth after the War for use as a poor man’s shotgun.  Bobby not only relined it, but “stretched” the barrel back to its original length and it was almost impossible to see where he had added the length back to the barrel.  This M1855 Rifle was one of the early ones that was fitted with the long range “ladder type” rear sight.  When Bobby got done with it, that rifle was so accurate it could not be beaten unless the shooter messed up shooting it.  What I’ve seen Bobby do to Original and especially the Repro Smith Carbine barrels was almost magic. 

Gus

Offline varsity07840

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2013, 06:39:55 PM »
I have a number of military originals that I shoot. 1816 Springfield  flint, 1841 Mississippi .58 cal, 1842 Springfield rifled full length, 1842 Springfield rifled musketoon length, and 1863 Springfield. All but the 1863 have been relined by Bob Hoyt. They were bought to be used as shooters and while they are all in decent shape, none of them could be considered collector grade. In addition I have a massive original plains style percussion half stock with a barrel that is 1 3/8" at the breech. It is .69 cal and still weighs a ton. Finally, I shoot an original Westley Richards percussion Sporting Rifle, similar to a Purdey that is around 16 bore. I had this one checked out by a specialist from Memphis(his name escapes me right now but he was recommended
to me by Ross Seyfried) and pronounced safe to shoot. I've taken deer with all but the shortened '42 and the big plains rifle.

Duane

doug

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2013, 11:03:21 PM »
    I have several original rifles and shotguns that I shoot.   One of the more accurate ones is and E&W Bond .54 cal 1/2 stock with a damascus barrel.  The only reason that I have not shot it recently is because of its weight.   I also have shot a number of single and double barrel percussion  shotguns and have no regrets about doing so.  I do think that if an antique gun is in pristine shape, I would be hesitant to shoot it because of potential damage to the finish during cleaning.  I have noticed that warm water with fouling in it will often lift the finish on some of the older guns.  Puzzles me because the stocks do not show similar damage from their previous life and the guns involved appear to have been shot a lot in the good old days

cheers Doug

Offline ohidan

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Re: Shooting Original Rifles
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2013, 12:58:39 AM »
I collect mainly Ohio made rifle's and mostly Vincent Guns over the years, and I can honestly say that I've only bought one Ohio made gun that I've never shot . When I get a new gun I completely disassemble and clean it and I always put in a new nipple, if I have any concerns I take it  to a friend of mine and we determine if it is safe to shoot or not . After I reassemble it I shoot a five shot group at 25 yds. just to see how it groups,but I never move the sights for fear of scratching the barrel, and label the target for the gun I am shooting and keep it in a folder in my gun safe.That way I have record of how the gun shoots. I have a 32cal.John W Fleming that I squirrel hunt with and I admit I sure miss a lot of squirrels in early season when the leaves are still on but I sure have a lot of fun. They ain't no fun sittin in the gun safe.
ohidan