Question about how the woven sashes was worn in conjunction with hunting shirts?

[Jerry V Lape]

I was given a woven sash to help make up a period costume with breech clout, hunting shirt and leggings ties.  How did they fasten these sashes?  Mine is enough to go around me twice (which is a substantial distance) but I haven't been able to figure out a reasonable way to fasten it. 

[smokinbuck]

When I wear it, I fold it in half lengthwise and take it around the waist twice. Put the open side, based on the long fold, up and it creates a sort of pocket. I usually tie a square knot, stays tied and easy to un tie.
Mark

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Jerry, there is a special 'sash knot' for the woven sash.  I might have to get someone to take step by step pictures as I tie it, but I'll try hard to describe it now.
Your sash needs enough length to go around you twice with about 4' or more if you're lucky, left over.  Start with 2' or so of sash hanging down from your left hip, and bring the rest back toward your front with your left hand, holding that vertical section against your body with your right hand.
You will have a little triangle of sash over the fingers of your right hand.  Keep that hand where it is, holding that short end in place, and with the other hand, or a helper, bring the sash around behind you and over the fingers of your right hand again.  That's once around the girth.  Now pass it around you again, until it comes up to your left hip.  As you pass your right hand fingers, pass the running end of the sash UNDER ALL of the previous wraps, and straight up and over the sash to hang straight down over that first vertical section.  Those two short lengths can be more or less equal in length.  You will find that the knot is flat, lays against your body comfortably, and cannot be dislodged without considerable determination.
Hope that's clear as moonshine.

[Mark Elliott]

For me, personally,  that one is going to require a YouTube video. 

[whitebear]

HUH???

[Ky-Flinter]

Taylor,

From your description, it sounds like it might be tied like the "Strangle" knot.  Is this it?



-Ron

[necchi]

Very close.
With the lower end of the rope in the photo, being drapped over the top and hung it's full width.

It really only works well for folks that are lean cut gents, or if someone can do nothing but stand the entire day.
I'm a little bigger and moving and sitting will cause the entire sash to "roll" on itself and the nice wide band ya started with ends up being a rope, 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

No Ron, that's not it, because both of the ends of the sash will be hanging down.  Looking at the knot image again, if the rope were a flat sash, that might actually be it.  Yes, the short end to the right would be draped over the whole knot.  I think that is it!  But I'll get someone to take pictures of me tying the knot with a sash, and post them here, for clarification.

[Artificer]

D. Taylor's method was how I wore my Confederate Officer's sash for years.  Of course I wore a belt with pistol, sword hangers and sword from it as well - so I did not have to worry about it coming undone with the belt over it. 
Gus

[Ky-Flinter]

It really only works well for folks that are lean cut gents, or if someone can do nothing but stand the entire day.
I'm a little bigger and moving and sitting will cause the entire sash to "roll" on itself and the nice wide band ya started with ends up being a rope,  

Necchi,

I think I may have that same problem.   But if it's going to happen, it will happen regardless of the type of knot used, correct?

-Ron

[Luke MacGillie]

With nothing specific that I know of regarding a special knot that backwoods euro's used to tie a sash, I pretty much just tie a square knot.  Sometimes I leave it in front, sometimes I scrunch it around to the back. 

Beware of any information about special folds, knots or any incantations that must be spoken to put on the sash unless its in the written word of a person who actually wore a sash in the period. 

[Chuck Burrows]

Here's an image wearing his sash tied per D Taylor's

http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/mountainman/joe_meek.gif

it's basically nothing more than you start just like tying a square knot, then on the second part don't bring the one half all the way through the second loop - just tuck it as shown in Meek's image and snug it up with the other half - to untie just tug on the part that is tucked through...

[Smoketown]

Beware of any information about special folds, knots or any incantations that must be spoken to put on the sash unless its in the written word of a person who actually wore a sash in the period.  

The sash knot I've often seen used is the same as used for the for the belt on a karate gi.

Sash, long tie or bow tie ... it doesn't matter.
If I were to print my period correct "incantations" whilst tying them, I be permanently banned from the site.  

Cheers,
Smoketown

[Artificer]

With nothing specific that I know of regarding a special knot that backwoods euro's used to tie a sash, I pretty much just tie a square knot.  Sometimes I leave it in front, sometimes I scrunch it around to the back. 

Beware of any information about special folds, knots or any incantations that must be spoken to put on the sash unless its in the written word of a person who actually wore a sash in the period. 

There are plenty of 17th and 18th century portraits showing a sash tied with the knot as D. Taylor mentioned and wearing a sword.  However, they normally are men in Military Uniforms or some are Noblemen who just are dressing up that way.

Even though some frontiersmen would have seen British or American Officers with a sash so tied, it does not mean it was a common way for frontiersmen to do it.   I have no doubt they would have tied their sash any way they chose and that includes a square knot.  I do think it possible or even probable if they had something a little fancier like a woven sash with colored patterns, that they may have tried to tie it a little fancier to show off the colored woven patterns, but I admit that is only speculation. 

It seems written accounts at times use the term "sash" and "belt" (as in a waist belt) interchangeably.  So sometimes we can't be sure if they meant some kind of cloth or leather waist belt?   I've wondered if that sometimes meant they wore a cloth belt or other kind of tie around their waist just to close their hunting shirt in "safe or civilized" areas, but went to a leather belt especially when carrying a tomahawk, knife and the few numbers of men who carried pistols? 

Gus

[Smoketown]

Sash tying

Trapper/Pirate Sash







Uniform Sash



Cheers,
Smoketown

[Sequatchie Rifle]

I'm sure that folks back in the "day" just wrapped in around their waist a couple of times and tied in thing back or on the side based on their own preference.  A bit like combing your hair- you determine your own process based on what you like!

[necchi]

Back in the day;
The sash while they were decorative and part of ceremonial and formal dress actually had a more work-a-day purpose.
The voyageur carried weight! Those packs where loaded and balanced to be around 90 pounds. Carrying two, three even four of these on portage was how money was made for the common man.

The sash was to gird the low gut, just like a weight belt used today.
While there's not a lot of record I can find I'm sure hernia was a common problem and certain death back then as it is today.

[Artificer]

Great point, Necchi,

This is something very interesting to me in not only "how" they did something back then, but also "why" they did it. 

I remember someone (maybe Doc Andy Baker?) suggesting they used the woven ties wrapped above and below the knee to support their knee's much like a knee brace does today, but I never thought about a sash being used to prevent hernia's.  (Andy was a Gynecologist by profession, but even he joked about his patients initially thinking he was an Outlaw Biker when they first met him, so he had a picture of him in his buckskins put in his office.  Grin.)

I was JUST old enough to have occasionally used a "Field Transport Pack" in my earliest days in the Corps in the early 70's.  Between the Knapsack, Haversack, rolled camouflage "tube" and associated gear; those packs weighed between 90 and 110 lbs.   They were not fun just to stand inspection with, let alone march with them.  By the 90's we had the ALICE packs which were a good deal better, but still needed some improvement.  So I decided to take some lessons from history and apply them to the then modern pack.

Of course I was not allowed to use the Voyageur's Tumpline for a military pack, but I stopped at RSI and had them make up a "breast strap" like the Voyageurs used and also bought a padded hip belt.   I hand sewed the hip belt to the pack using leather needles and artificial sinew, so the weight of the pack was on my hips instead of my shoulders.   Made a world of difference on forced marches.   Funny thing was no one noticed until the third time when I wore the rig and a Major asked me about it.

The Major wasn’t being critical, but rather wanted to know why I made those modifications.  So I asked him, “Sir, ever heard of the term “"Coureur de bois" or “Woodsrunner?”  When he said he had not, I gave him a short history lesson and later on he asked me how I made those modifications.  I told him those men had made their living off of carrying huge loads over long distances and they surely knew how to carry heavy packs.  So he went to RSI and got the added gear and I showed him how to attach the breast strap and belt over one lunch hour.  Our Colonel spotted us and asked what we were doing and that led to him getting the gear and I sewed the hip belt to his pack as well.   

Word spread quickly and that started a bunch of trips to RSI and I forget how many hip belts I hand sewed to packs for us in Division Ordnance and the G4 section.  Within a few months, most of us at least had breast straps on our packs and it was uncommon not to see one so modified. 

Of course it was great to spread some knowledge of our time period in history while we did it.  This was just one example of many times I used the lessons of history to make or do things better “in modern times.”
Gus