Rifled Trade Guns fowling pieces

[54ball]

 I see a few trade and fowling gun kits offered with the rifled barrel option. I guess it's one of those things that could have happened.

 Do any of you know of any surviving gun or documentation of a 18th century smoothbore type gun being rifled by a smith?

 I have read about and have seen photographs of New England militia muskets with rifled barrels or at least partially rifled at the last few inches of the barrel behind the muzzle.  It's my understanding this these old "rifled muskets" were done that way,"faked", in the early 20th century to increase their "collector" value.

[rich pierce]

Most smoothbore trade guns had barrels too thin at the muzzle to support rifling.  Nowadays most smooth bore barrels available are thick at the muzzle, often thicker than original muskets so it is practical to rifle them.

Keep in mind that many smooth trade guns were the least expensive guns available. So locks were often not top notch, trigger pulls may be hard, long or creepy, etc.  Not the ideal platform for accurate shooting.

[Vomitus]

   Chambers has a smooth rifle kit that has a rifled barrel option.(O/R, 46") I've coveted this kit for some time.Great lock. It has the Pa. fowling piece look to it but with sights and a small cheek.  Newcomber? can't remember.
  Trade guns were rustic to say the least but serviceable. I have never seen one rifled or heard of such.But you never know. Thin barrels, like Rich said.

[Pete G.]

Rifled tradegun barrels are a modern development. I suspect they came from those who want an historic looking arm, but grew up believing the inaccurate British musket stories from the school history books. A smooth bore can be surprisingly accurate if loaded like a rifle (tightly patched round ball), and still retain its value as a shotgun. Granted, you will never obtain the accuracy of a rifle, but a 6 inch 50 yard group is not unusual at all

[mattdog]

a 6 inch 50 yard group is not unusual at all


Very true.  Sadly some can't shoot that well even with a rifle gun with front and rear sights.  IMHO rifling doesn't make much (or any) difference until after 50 yards anyway.   

[Dphariss]

a 6 inch 50 yard group is not unusual at all


Very true.  Sadly some can't shoot that well even with a rifle gun with front and rear sights.  IMHO rifling doesn't make much (or any) difference until after 50 yards anyway.   

Depends on the application. If you are shooting at targets the size of a dinner plate it makes little difference if the gun shoots 6" or 1" at 50 yards if the shooter can break the shot center everytime. But if the target is much smaller, such as shooting for distances from center then the smoothbore is totally useless.

Smooth bores will not do this.

60 yards.

This is not as good as the barrel will do but its as good as I could do.
I have tested a smooth rifle that would not kill a squirrel reliably at 25 yards, though I did not test it with the accuracy load since it was 110 gr of FF in 50 cal (4" at 50-60 yards.). I decided it was not a small game gun with a PRB and 110 gr so I did not test that load at 25. Its a poor rifle that will not kill a squirrel every shot at that distance.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I see a few trade and fowling gun kits offered with the rifled barrel option. I guess it's one of those things that could have happened.

 Do any of you know of any surviving gun or documentation of a 18th century smoothbore type gun being rifled by a smith?

 I have read about and have seen photographs of New England militia muskets with rifled barrels or at least partially rifled at the last few inches of the barrel behind the muzzle.  It's my understanding this these old "rifled muskets" were done that way,"faked", in the early 20th century to increase their "collector" value.

I once saw a "fowler" at the Palmer AK gunshow labeled as a "militia rifle". It was a fowler type with the chisel erupted rear sight. It was apparently smooth but was counter bored about 3-4" and was rifled on to the breech.
But it was not a trade gun but a typical light fowler of the era except it was a rifle.

Dan

[Captchee]

  while  i dont do it much , im going to have to disagree with you in this case



The first 3 shots  from the barrel prior to adjusting  where from the bench at 25 yards .



After alittle barrel bending to bring the POA center and we filed the front blade a little. Tell such time as he was shooting just alittle high at 25 .
We then went to shooting off hand at 50 and 75 yards
Here is his 50 and 75 yard target



the top ink dot is his 50 yard shooting . As you can see the pattern is under 4 inches . Infact if you discount the fliers , its under 2 inches .

The main bull is his 75 yard target . As you can see the 7 shots are under 6 inches . With one shot he did not follow through , which dropped to the bottom of the target ..

 While its  not a rifle group , IMO its very good  for a smoothbore and  I frankly can not see why  it wouldn’t take small squirrel game at 50 yards  or jack rabbits at 75 yards  when shooting off hand .
From a rest at those distances , I see no reason why  it wouldn’t knock a squirrel out of a tree  if one could see it clear enough   
 

[Captchee]

 this target is the first 6 shots from my small bored Hudson Valley ( IE 54 cal)



6  ball shots an 1  shot charge at 25 yards
 the two outer shots where  the #1 and #2 shots
 the group is 3, 4 , 5 and 6


 the shot patern was low  so i raised the powder charge by 10 grains for a shot load . this was the resulting pattern .80 grains of 2F under 1 1/2 oz of #71/2 shot

[Mike Brooks]

a 6 inch 50 yard group is not unusual at all


Very true.  Sadly some can't shoot that well even with a rifle gun with front and rear sights.  IMHO rifling doesn't make much (or any) difference until after 50 yards anyway.   

Depends on the application. If you are shooting at targets the size of a dinner plate it makes little difference if the gun shoots 6" or 1" at 50 yards if the shooter can break the shot center everytime. But if the target is much smaller, such as shooting for distances from center then the smoothbore is totally useless.

Smooth bores will not do this.

60 yards.

This is not as good as the barrel will do but its as good as I could do.
I have tested a smooth rifle that would not kill a squirrel reliably at 25 yards, though I did not test it with the accuracy load since it was 110 gr of FF in 50 cal (4" at 50-60 yards.). I decided it was not a small game gun with a PRB and 110 gr so I did not test that load at 25. Its a poor rifle that will not kill a squirrel every shot at that distance.

Dan

WAAAYYYY to much powder dude. Probably not a handy gun out west, but an incredibly handy gun in the midwest where we don't have to shoot so far.

[Dphariss]

a 6 inch 50 yard group is not unusual at all


Very true.  Sadly some can't shoot that well even with a rifle gun with front and rear sights.  IMHO rifling doesn't make much (or any) difference until after 50 yards anyway.   

Depends on the application. If you are shooting at targets the size of a dinner plate it makes little difference if the gun shoots 6" or 1" at 50 yards if the shooter can break the shot center everytime. But if the target is much smaller, such as shooting for distances from center then the smoothbore is totally useless.

Smooth bores will not do this.

60 yards.

This is not as good as the barrel will do but its as good as I could do.
I have tested a smooth rifle that would not kill a squirrel reliably at 25 yards, though I did not test it with the accuracy load since it was 110 gr of FF in 50 cal (4" at 50-60 yards.). I decided it was not a small game gun with a PRB and 110 gr so I did not test that load at 25. Its a poor rifle that will not kill a squirrel every shot at that distance.

Dan

WAAAYYYY to much powder dude. Probably not a handy gun out west, but an incredibly handy gun in the midwest where we don't have to shoot so far.

Sigh....
First: I am not a "dude".
Second: While I DID try lighter loads they did not do well.

Oh yes the  rifle group with the dime was shot off a plank rest which is not as good as a Chunk or a bench rest. The average deviation from center is .408". If someone can do this at 60 yards with a smoothbore in  COMPETITION I would be "surprised".
I always remember the Warner-Lowe papers where they realte  Nicandor Kendall using a lead lap and coarse emery to rifle a barrel he had set up in the rifling machine. He and a companion then went to a SB only turkey match and "shot all the turkeys the man would put up". This will apparently shoot "nearly as well as a rifle " for 100 rounds or so. Scratch rifling its called.
I find it interesting that when I say something like "a sb will not do this" SB shooters jump right in to prove me wrong and actually prove me right.

Dan

[Captchee]

LMAO , Dan  you just like to argue to much .
 Now I wouldn’t call myself a smoothbore shooter ..  Nope not much of one at all .
 The photos I posted of my HV target , just luck . First time out . New barrel and at close range .
 The  first photos ,  of Fred Wisner’s .  he had never shot a flintlock  not to mention a smoothbore . But he has been shooting cap lock muzzleloaders since about 1958. So those  OFF hand groups were probably nothing more then just first timers luck as well
 One thing we do have back here is more then a few dedicated smoothbore shooters . Many of which shoot nothing else . Out to around 75 yards , those fellas will hand  you butt to you on a platter . Especially if you want  to  fall for them shooting from a bench .
Myself I don’t like bench shooting , just never got into it . I would rather spend the day shooting at small   hanging steel  , off hand at long distance then  fiddle around with paper  but that’s just me .

 Thinking on this subject , which has  nothing to do with groups as  we were shooting steel . But I think one of the longest shots I  have ever seen with smooth bores was this last year up at Seneca Or .
 The shot was at an Oxygen size cylinder at 225 yards .
 There were  5 of us shooting . Myself with my HV , Allen Roberts  with a  English fowler . Don Smith a De Chase. Followed by Jerry Huddleston  and  Crockett .(yes that’s his real, family  last name ) .
 Jerry hit 2 times if I recall  as did Crockett.  Allen and I both hit once  . I will tell you that my shot was pure luck nothing else . Don on the other hand  hit it 5 time times in a row while resting against a big sugar pine . Why 5 times . Well because we kept calling BS that’s why . I lost 2 bucks and a good bottle of rum on that target . Wont be doing that again anytime so  concerning Don LOL .
 Put a rifle in my hand and  I can hang  . Smoothbore is another story .
 All im saying is  we shouldn’t  make blanket statements as it can be very surprising what some of those fellas can do with their smoothbores

[Bob Roller]

We had a real muzzle loading gunsmith here by the name of Glen Napier
and he did everything as it was done back "in the day". He once smooth
reamed a barrel using a home made reamer and the followed up with a
different type,tool steel backed by hard wood that put a slight choke in
the barrel.The next day,he went to a Saturday shoot a Bill Large's and
shot the smooth reamed barrel at 25 yards off hand and won some groceries
with it.A smooth bore,properly done with no big pits or "Hog Wallows" as
Bill called them will shoot at close range with rifled barrels.Any barrel
that can't produce a 4 or 5 leaf clover at 50 yards when fired by a practiced
shooter need to be fixed or scrapped. On thanksgiving day of 1967,I finished
a Hawken copy for myself and tested it and knew it was a good one.The 1-1/8
x 34x 54 caliber Bill Large Barrel was all I thought it would be.On Christmas
day,I shot a 100yard 5 leaf clover with it off a very solid rest.A.535 round ball and
120 grains of DuPont 3fg did the trick.
I have heard of the scratch rifling but don't think I ever encountered it at a
match.

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

No sense of humor Dan.

[Dphariss]

No sense of humor Dan.

Well I guess I get a little tired of people telling me their smoothbores are shooting as good as rifles. They don't. Everyone knows this but they just have to make the claim anyway, its some sort of OCD I guess. But then I don't shoot at dinner plate sized steel targets with my ML very often nor did people back in the day. Unless the rifle is really poor or needs serious load development the SB simply does not have a chance if shooting on paper for score. People saying that rifling really does not matter under 50 yards, not so, unless the targets are really big.
 
And I have saddled enough horses for "dudes" at 3 oclock in the AM finally getting MY work done after dark. Cutting wood weeks before in the Wilderness Area with a cross cut saw after carrying it to camp on my shoulder, then watching them load the stove, in a TENT, so it can still be burnt out and just as cold as if they had not in a couple of hours, (the guides did not HAVE a stove, it was a waste of wood, and often slept on saddle pads on the ground since cots were heavy). Picking up the trash they tend to leave in the woods that I don't consider myself a "dude" nor do I like being called one.

Having hunted with smoothbores when I had one I thought was cool, I can honestly say I have shot at more animals than I have killed, but then I don't shoot at long bow ranges much. So I use a rifle.
When I can go to a "rendezvous" with a rifle that is not even sighted in yet, that later proved to be so inaccurate after testing that I would not hunt with it and tie the score of the best SB shooter over the same course it explains it very well and I thought I shot abysmally. This after I had been down at one of the traders being regaled, as usual, by a SB shooter about how wonderfully accurate his SB was  I have shot trade gun matches at Rendezvous too. Again I hate knowing the hold is good and missing. It's frustrating and seems so pointless. Shotguns are for small shot. Solid projectiles work better from rifled bores. This has been known since sometime in the 16th c. I think, surely by the 17th.

Dan

[rich pierce]

Fellas, we've been down this road before a score of times at least and many of the protagonists have said the same things over and over again.  The question has been answered.  If you want to start a new topic on "rifles are accurate with round ball" (who knew?) or "silhouette shooting with smoothbores", have at it.  There really is no need for these discussions to become personal.  So let's move on from this one.  It's locked.