Soldering on a Ramrod Pipe

[moleeyes36]

An elderly neighbor of mine bought an H&A underhammer rifle kit from Pecatonica as his first muzzle loader.  He saw it was more than he could tackle and asked me to help him put it together.  It's going to be a nice little rifle for him and it's quite easy to put together. 

However this rifle has only one ramrod pipe and it's soldered directly to the bottom flat of the barrel, there is no under rib.  I don't see how with this method there won't be some solder visible after the barrel is browned, regardless of how carefully the job is done.  I know there are products to blacken brass and aluminum, but is there a way to darken the silver solder after the pipe is attached that will make it less visible?     

[smylee grouch]

File a small flat on the pipe, tin the flat and barrel, clamp into position and use regular solder.

[gunmaker]

Solder will not stick to regular pencil lead.  after all else is done, filed clean, a flat on pipe, clamp gently together, solder & paste on both surfaces,  rub a soft pencil all around the joint.  the solder will roll right off it.   cool...tom

[whetrock]

I've not soldered directly to the barrel like this, but have soldered handmade pipes to a handmade rib on a half-stock TN rifle (rib was then screwed on). I filed the pipes carefully for a very good flush fit, then tinned both the pipes and the rib with a thin layer of low temp silver solder. Before attaching the pipes, I carefully filed away any excess that was in the wrong place. Clamped gently, then heated the pipes until the solder melted and joined the tinned surfaces. Two pipes. No solder showed.

I'm not an expert on this (or much of anything, for that matter), but it seems that keeping a thin layer of solder is important when you are tinning. When you put the two tinned surfaces together, you are doubling the amount of solder in the joint. So a very thin layer is sufficient. Anything beyond what is necessary becomes excess that then bleeds out of the joint.

 _The Gunsmith's Manual_ (Stelle and Harrison) p. 175, when talking about soldering a rib to a barrel, even suggests wiping the excess solder off with a rag before it cools, presumably so as to leave a very thin layer of tinned solder before joining the parts. [Added: when soldering a rib, Stelle ahd Harrison do recommend filling the edges of such a rib with more solder as the piece settles into place under heat, and then clean up with a chisel-like tool.]

I found it helpful to work out the technique with soldering the pipes on scap material of the same size, using a prototype pipe I had left over. Trial and error. You may want to do the same on a chunk of scrap filed to the width of the barrel flat, etc.

[Dave B]

I learned that a slick way to solder any thing to a barrel is good heat control at the site to be soldered. If you make a slug of copper from a old soldering Iron that is just under bore size and heat it  real hot run it just to the point to be tinned.  Once  after running the soft solder on the heated area till it starts to melt in a puddle, scrub the area with the past fluxed steel wool and your surface will tin perfectly.  I have always made the mistake in the past when using the torch to over heat the metal and burn the flux contaminating the surface of the area to be soldered making a mess that must be completely cleaned up before redoing it.
Here is an example of a hollow under rib that I soft soldered on to a Oct-rd barrel in .62 cal.  Obviously you would have to make several trips with the copper slug to the torch to get a good heat through a full Oct barrel but still this method gives good control of the heat.





The section that appears to be black on the end of the rod is a slug of solid copper turned to just fit the bore, under sized just a bit. you will still need to heat the rod pipe with a propane torch but go slow and you will be pleased with how well it works. I need to try the Masking off the area with the soft pencil lead. I have also heard the liquid white out works as well.

[Lucky R A]

   Soft solder can be easily "blackened" using a chemical available to those who work with stain glass. Try to find someone locally who works in this medium, and get a small amount for your project.  You can do a search, but it is usually sold in larger amounts at a bit more expense than necessary if you are only doing one project. 
    Pencil lead, soap stone, etc. all work to prevent solder sticking where you do not want it.  Tin both parts and then heat them together until the solder flows.

Good luck

Ron

[Captchee]

   What I do is  mark the location on the barrel  by marking front and back of the  pipe .
 In then make a concave  bed for the pipe  between those marks .  Go slow so that you make a nice bed that the pipe fits tight into without run out  past your marks   You don’t need to go to deep .  You don’t want the  ID of the pipe to be lower then the bottom barrel flat  when it set to the grove .. It doesn’t take much and isnt anywhere near as deep as a dove tail on a sight  .
 Now tin your pipe and the  bed  you made on the barrel  .
   I then take a  5/16 drill rod and slide it through the  pipe into the  ram rod hole  so as to align the rod . Then solder /sweat the pipe to the barrel  by applying just enough heat to  melt the solder joint so that the pipe settles into the bed .
 By doing it that way you end up with more surface area for  the solder  to hold to .
 Once cool , take an old carpenters wood chisel and carefully shave off  the  any solder you may have showing . Your just taking of the larger  thicker areas . Now take a strip of fine emery  and fold it over the chisel .   Lay it so the flat of the chisel is along the barrel flat and the  angle is along the pipe . IE the point of the chisel is  in  the joint where the pipe meets the barrel . Carefully work    along sanding off any  left over solder .
 When your done   there will be no solder visible along the joint .

[frogwalking]

Some years back, I found a welding clamp on the road.  It is the  type made out of a pair of vicegrip pliars. T his is great to clamp pieces for soldering.  I use soapstone or pencil lead to limit the flow of the solder, and tin both pieces.  Clamp the pipe in place with the spring loaded clamp and heat the barrel.  Someone here told me to remove excess solder with a chisel made out of brass.  This works great since my solder joints are seldom perfect.  Heat the joint very slowly and throughly until you see the solder moving around the joint.  Do not overheat.

[smylee grouch]

As an after thought, make sure you clean the bore after you do the solder job.

[moleeyes36]

Well from the inputs you've provided I guess I'm ready to give it a try.  I've been out of town at a shoot most of the day, but I stopped on the way out of town and bought some regular solder.  I also stopped by a Hobby Lobby and checked their stained glass section but they didn't carry the chemical to blacken solder that Ron mentioned.  So I'll use regular pencil lead to help control where the solder sticks and go light with the solder.  I used to do a lot of soldering on electrical circuit boards a number of years ago, so I know how to tin both the barrel and the ramrod pipe and not to get heavy handed when applying the solder.  I'm a little out of practice, but I'm going to give it a go.  Thanks for all the inputs, guys. 

[DaveP (UK)]

you might find it reassuring to have a look at this video:
http://www.midwayusa.com/General.mvc/Index/VideoLibrary?&VideoID=1_tzd3tlt7&Category=gunsmithing&cm_mmc=sm_youtube-_-video_content-_-youtube_video_description-_-1_tzd3tlt7

I'm contemplating the need to re solder a hollow rib with two pipes, so I was quite glad to watch someone replacing a rib to a sxs shotgun. Sure, he's an expert, and he made it look easy, but more importantly, to me, he made it look like something not to get stressed about.
He was quite generous with the solder and then simply took the excess off with a chisel and a homemade scraper - without scarring the barrel. I was impressed!

[moleeyes36]

David,

Thanks, Larry Potterfield always makes things look easy.  What is complicating things is that the gentleman I'm helping build this gun really likes the look of a barrel finished with Plum Brown, which is a hot browning solution.  If I solder the ramrod pipe to the barrel before I brown them, I think the heat required to use the Plum Brown solution would melt the solder.  So I'm left with browning them both before I solder them together.

I'm going to try essentially what Captchee suggested earlier.  I've already made a shallow, concave bed in the barrel where I want to attach the pipe.  Next I'm going to brown both the barrel and the ramrod pipe.  Then I'll remove the browned finish from the bed and in a strip along the bottom of the pipe and tin them both.  After that I'll use a rod to align them, clamp them together, and sweat/solder them.  By judicious use of the solder and generous use of pencil lead applied all around the bed and strip on the pipe it should come out okay.  Of course a little dumb luck wouldn't hurt either  .  I'm going to try to hunt down some of that chemical that is used to blacken solder that Ron suggested in case there is some touch up needed. 

[2veeps]

Know this is a little late.  Just read this thread. When I had a Numrich Arms H&A underhammer 35 years ago,  I seem to remember that the single ramrod thimble was held on with a brass rod. Two holes were drilled through the thimble and into the bottom of the barrel. The holes did not go into the barrel very far, of course, just enough to hold a small piece of brass rod ( maybe 3/32 or 1/8 inch dia.). The rod was soldered in place then cut off so that when the thimble was put back in place, the rods stuck out of the inside of the thimbles about 1/8 inch. These were then preened over, probably using a steel rod through the holes in the top of thimbles.  No soldier ever showed.

[frogwalking]

 The heat required for Plumb brown will not effect solder.

[T*O*F]

I think the heat required to use the Plum Brown solution would melt the solder.

When using Plum Brown, the barrel need only be heated enough so that spit sizzles on it.  That would make it around 200 degrees.  A solder with a melting point of around 350 would put it above that temperature.