Author Topic: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?  (Read 12436 times)

Offline Chunker119

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Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« on: January 04, 2014, 08:41:53 AM »
I was cleaning a rifle tonight and had it in the vise and it slipped out and broke completely in two diagonally from the top of the comb to the end of the trigger guard. Who can fix this?  :-\
Colton L. Fleetwood                
     "Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway"  - John Wayne

Offline cmac

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2014, 01:54:00 PM »
Many of the originals have wrist repairs for us to study. How do you want it repaired and do you have a photo?

Offline KLMoors

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2014, 03:51:55 PM »
I am assuming you mean it broke towards the front of the trigger guard. If I am picturing this correctly, then this is actually a "good" long break.  It can be glued and clamped together, or it can also be reinforced with a steel rod sent from the breech area down through the wrist, and glued and clamped.

I think the top choice for an adhesive would be tightbond, or colored acraglass.

Some guys manage to do this and have it totally disappear.

LehighBrad

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2014, 04:10:09 PM »
I broke my .40 caliber Southern / Bedford "Frankenstien" longrifle in half at that very same area years ago. I used Titebond dark wood glue and a fine tip glue injector to get glue into every nook and cranny. Then carefully pieced it back together and tightly wrapped the whole wrist area with an old bicycle inner tube to give the glued joint tight even pressure from all around. I left the glue cure good for a few days, removed the inner tube wrapping, scraped and refinished the whole stock. But this time I added fake curly maple striping to help hide the thin hair line crack. It all but disappeared! I've been hunting tree rats with it ever since!! The last picture shows a bit of the repaired crack just under the lock where the decorative groove is and it travels up over the lock panel to the corner of the barrel tang.

URL=http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/LehighBrad/media/006-1.jpg.html][/URL]




« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 04:24:42 PM by LehighBrad »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2014, 11:59:28 PM »
I shattered my Brown Bess Carbine stock when I tried to use it to "break my fall" like we were taught with M1 and M14 buttstocks.  This stock was shattered so badly and thick enough, I drilled it for two threaded brass rods side by side and used Accraglass GEL as the "glue."   I used surgical tubing wrapped around it to clamp the other broken pieces and made sure I mold released the trigger guard, tang and almost every metal part around the shattered area so they would not become permanently glued in place.  After it cured thoroughly following the directions, I used files and sandpaper to clean up any extra that squooshed out of cracks or voids to get it down to the surface of the wood.

I recommend buying the 4 oz GEL kit and asking to make sure you get at least one BROWN dye packet with it and some mold release.  IOW, you won't have to buy "extra stuff" to use it.   http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-adhesives/acraglas-gel--prod1038.aspx

One tip I might add about dying/coloring the Accraglas GEL is use the brown dye
that  Brownell's sells for it or is in a kit.  When you use this stuff, it is REALLY easy to add too much dye and color it too dark.  For small repairs, I use a jeweler's screwdriver to just get a little teensy bit at a time and mix it thoroughly and THEN mix a little more if the color isn't dark enough.  You sort of "sneak up" to the color of the wood.   I like to try for just a tiny bit darker than the wood color.  By the way, it dries a bit lighter than it looks when you mix it up.  
Gus
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 12:01:22 AM by Artificer »

Offline Long John

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2014, 12:36:09 AM »
Post some photos if you want more specific help.

JMC

Offline Curtis

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2014, 05:56:45 AM »
Colton, here are a couple of links that you may find helpful.

This one is on the old ALR board and you will have to register an log in to see it.  It is a break repair by Taylor Sapergia, on page 3 are some pics after the repair:
http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php?topic=10457.0

I think you can register here:
http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php

This is a repair to a break on an old rifle:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11854.0

Curtis
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 05:57:22 AM by Curtis »
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Chunker119

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2014, 06:04:39 AM »
I can not register....  :-[
Colton L. Fleetwood                
     "Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway"  - John Wayne

Offline Chunker119

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2014, 06:26:50 AM »
Colton L. Fleetwood                
     "Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway"  - John Wayne

whetrock

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2014, 07:38:33 AM »
Bummer...

You might want to take the trigger guard loose before it gets twisted and torqued any more than it has already.  Also wrap the broken ends of wood in a bundle of clean rags and tape the rags in place with some masking tape, to keep the fragile broken edges from getting chipped. The less further damage is inflicted, the better the chance of a clean (read "hidden") glue joint in repair.

I wouldn't try to put the pieces together--that is, don't try to "set the break" before you wrap it up. You aren't trying to set a bone here. You are just trying to protect the broken ends from bumping and rubbing against anything, until you or someone else can get around to repairing it. So just wrap them up separately.

Just some suggestions.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 11:37:06 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

blaksmth

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2014, 08:19:38 AM »
I will agree with Articfer,   get a stock bolt off of  pump shot gun and remove butt plate, counter Drill  a hole towards the barrel end of break to the pistol grip and get a machinist to make you a piece with threads to match the bolt but with Knurled outside or threaded ( a nut of sorts)  and set this in side the crack towards the barrel end and glass this in. glass the crack  then install bolt and pull up snug, put butt plate on and you will not see the repair. This will make a solid setup.

 You may want to add the powdered metal that acra glass sells on the (nut) to really make this solid ;)

Offline Artificer

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2014, 10:23:49 AM »
Mountainman,
I know that break makes you heartsick, BUT believe it or not, that is an easier break to fix than many I’ve seen and much easier than the shattered Brown Bess Carbine Stock I mentioned earlier and fixed.

Whetrock made some excellent points about protecting the edges of the two cracked wood pieces.  To make the repair as least noticeable as possible, every edge of original wood is valuable.  Any missing edges or pieces can be filled in with Accraglas, but it makes the repair more noticeable.   I very much agree the trigger guard should be dismounted and if necessary, bent back to as close as the original shape as possible.  That way when it is screwed back in place after you glue the stock and before the Accraglas cures, it will help to align the stock and keep it in the correct position when you glue it and while the Accraglas or other epoxy cures.  It also sort of acts like a clamp to keep both pieces aligned front to back and in the correct position. 

Blaksmith is correct that a long threaded bolt and nut would be good to use, but if one does it that way, it can make alignment of the two stock pieces more difficult IF you don’t get the nut glued in exactly in line with the bolt and that could cause the broken stock piece to not be aligned correctly with the forward end of the stock when you tighten the long bolt in place.  (I’ve seen such problems happen when repairing both modern and muzzleloading gun stocks.)   A fix like this is better done on something like the butt stock of a modern shotgun or even a modern rifle, in my opinion.

Looking at the photo of your stock, I would use two 1/8” or 3/16” threaded brass rods, one short towards the top of the crack and a longer one towards the bottom.  You have to drill the holes for them oversize so the rods will not cause alignment problems when the two pieces of the stock are glued together.  You put Accraglass in the holes to fill up the extra material you cut out and Accraglas on the threads of the rods.  You cut inverted cone shapes near the ends of both holes on both pieces of the stock and they will also be filled with Accraglas.  What that does is make sort of an internal dovetail or think of something like the shape of an hourglass laying down along the length of the stock.  This and the threaded brass rods actually make the repair stronger than the original wood. 

When done this way, you DO have to lay a couple of maybe ½” or ¾” boards along each side of the stock when you clamp both pieces in a vise OR use a couple Irwin Soft Jawed clamps (one above and one below the crack) holding the boards against the stock pieces to keep them aligned,  like the one showed in this link:  http://www.irwin.com/tools/clamps/one-handed-mini-bar-clamps   

Such a repair requires thinking and planning ahead before and when you do it, but it is not rocket science.  If you don’t feel you can do it, then by all means approach someone who can.   
 
Oh, I would advise against using atomized/powdered metal in the Accraglas as it would make such a repair VERY visible when done as the metal will stick out like a sore thumb like “tiny sparkles” in any place it is exposed and it is not needed for this repair for additional strength.  I glass bedded my first M14 in 1973 and have glassed thousands of M14, M1, Remington M40A1, M1 Carbine, M1903 and A3 stocks and I’ve lost track of all the other modern and muzzleloading guns I’ve done over the years.  My first year in the Marine Corps RTE Rifle Rebuild Section, I glass bedded over 150 rifles, for example.  I do not mention this to brag, but I’m simply stating what we did as it was our normal job.  Atomized/powdered metal is a good idea in other applications, but not in this one, in my opinion. 

Gus

blaksmth

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2014, 03:44:10 PM »
I ment to use the powdered metal to only glue the nut in place  Not to repair the crack, my bad
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2014, 04:09:41 PM »
I can not register....  :-[

Send me the user name and password that you want to use and
I will set you up a login in ghe archive database.
Dennis
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Offline Long John

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2014, 05:19:32 PM »
Mountainman,

Now that we can see the break we can make some reasoned suggestions.

First, I concur with the advice to remove the TG. 

You have a nice, long surface for gluing.  I would use one of the modern commercial wood glues like Tight-Bond.  No Gorilla glue - it expands upon curing and will ruin things big-time.  There are a number available and all of them are stronger than the wood.  They are also water soluble.   Moisten the cleavage surfaces with water (this aids in getting the glue to integrate with the wood), apply your glue and fit the break back together, taking extreme care to get the pieces properly aligned and fitted together as they were before the accident.   Wrap the joint with an elastic of some sort to hold the joint in place.  I use 1/4" gum-rubber tubing as an elastic.

I would not put pins in the stock.  Wood expands and contracts with humidity.  If you put pins or dowels across the grain the crack will open up over time due to the expansion and contraction of the wood.  Been there - got the T-shirt.  Our modern wood glues are stronger than the wood and if you do a good job at fitting things back together the joint will be stronger than the wood adjacent to it.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2014, 05:39:21 PM »
I agree with Long John.  No pins, bolts etc.  Glue alone will provide more than enough strength on a long grains surface such as this.  Good glue, alignment and clamping is all that will be needed.

Offline Artificer

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2014, 10:43:27 PM »
I have to politely disagree a bolt or threaded pin used to repair a stock makes it subject to cracking.

If stock expansion and contraction from humidity was a problem when using a bolt and nut through a stock, then it would show up in modern shotgun stocks (especially 12 and 10 gauges) by the thousands or tens of thousands; because they are taken directly out of environmentally controlled domiciles and not much time is ever given for the stocks to "acclimatize" before they are shot in extremes of cold, heat, rain, snow, etc.  That just doesn't happen to any significant degree at all.  Modern shotguns also put more intense and faster pressure on stocks than most muzzleloaders do and that certainly would cause such problems as well, if it were true.  I realize many modern shotgun stocks have recoil pads, but there were many hundreds of thousands of shotguns that did not have recoil pads on them and they did not suffer such damage to any degree other than when people dropped them or damaged them in other ways.   

I also have to bring up Enfield No. 1 rifles that had a stock bolt through the butt stock.  They had no recoil pad.  Whilst in Somalia and in charge of the “Foreign Weapons Collection and Destruction Point,” I was told one day that a Media Person was going to show up and make sure “we were doing something to be filmed.”   I reminded my Major that most of the guns were turned in during the wee hours of the morning and often we didn’t have much to do until such times later in the day.  He told me he understood, but “do something” for the camera.  OK, so I laid out some Mark I’s and busted a few butt stocks off and had more to do to be filmed.  It took a GREAT deal of effort to do that even with the long bolts through the butt stocks that held the butt stocks in place.  If a bolt through the butt stock seriously weakened the butt stock, they would not have been so hard to deliberately break.  We also have to remember a Mark 1 Enfield delivers a lot more recoil energy than many muzzleloaders.   

However, if one coats threaded brass rods with Accraglas, the Accraglas has enough "give" around the rods to more than allow for the wood in the stock to expand and contract.  I say this with certainty from having repaired many stocks this way, including that shattered Brown Bess stock.  Brown Bess barrels are not nearly as thick per size of the projectile as RB rifles.  The wrist of a Brown Bess stock is not much bigger, if any bigger, than the wrists of at least larger caliber RB rifles.  So a lot of shock is transferred to the wrist of the stock when shooting massive  .735 cal. Round Balls in them.  If there was a problem using Accraglas over threaded brass rods, it would show up MUCH faster with a Brown Bess than with most other RB rifles.  It doesn’t.

Setting that aside for a moment, one thing I don't believe has been mentioned yet is how important it is to keep the wood CLEAN in the cracked areas.

 Mountainman, you should be very careful to keep those cracked areas clean and free from solvents, greases or oils.  Any contaminants like this may or will ruin the bonding strength of a glue job.   Yes, contaminated wood can be cleaned to some degree, but it is much better if you don't allow the wood to become contaminated.  I also suggest storing the pieces of the stock, until you or someone else glues it, in two different cases or boxes or on shelves so the wood along the crack does not get battered or splintered.  Some folks just put both pieces of a stock back in one case and that can lead to the wood along the cracked areas being deformed, which would make the best repair more difficult. 

Gus


Offline okawbow

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2014, 02:26:44 AM »
As someone who makes violins and cellos; I would use a strong hot hide glue to fix the stock. If something goes wrong, the hide glue can be washed out with warm water and a brush. Modern glues cannot be removed easily. The hide glue line can be nearly invisible, and excess can be cleaned off easily after the join is dry. Practice mixing, heating, and applying hot hide glue on scrap before fixing the rifle.
A screw could be fit in from the guard tang, through the break, into the wrist, after the glue dries.

Hide glue granules can be bought from instrument maker supply stores, or from Three Rivers archery, where they sell it for gluing on bow backing. Lots of instruction for using hot hide glue online.
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline Chunker119

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2014, 03:07:52 AM »
But who could I send this to professionally fix it?
Colton L. Fleetwood                
     "Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway"  - John Wayne

Offline Artificer

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2014, 11:40:57 AM »
But who could I send this to professionally fix it?

I see from your member information that you are from southern Indiana?  That means you can't be too far from Friendship, IN and I say that having driven down from Muncie and Marion to the NMLRA Spring and Fall National Shoots back in the 70's.    Are you an NMLRA member?  Even if not, you might think about contacting them for information on gunsmiths who work on muzzleloaders in your area or at least they can give you the contact information for NMLRA Field Rep closest to you to ask.

Their phone number is (812) 667-5131 and website:  http://nmlra.org/about-us-2/contact-us/

OR Maybe better still, contact the Field Rep closest to you.  He/She should be able to point you to someone who can do the work properly.  There are a lot of Field Reps from Indiana, so I'd suggest you go down the list and find the one in your area code.  You can find the list of Field Reps here:  http://nmlra.org/about-us-2/field-reps/

Gus

Online Dave Marsh

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2014, 04:45:25 PM »
It should be noted that at the bottom of his post it says....

Colton L. Fleetwood
NMLRA Junior Field Rep. Coordinator

So although I do not know anyone who can fix his rifle he is still looking for help with a name. ::)
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Offline sqrldog

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2014, 05:51:25 PM »
Colton pm sent.  Tim

Offline Chunker119

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2014, 12:39:57 AM »
Thanks for all the help!!!
Colton L. Fleetwood                
     "Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway"  - John Wayne

Offline Artificer

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Re: Broken stock.... Who can fix it?
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2014, 11:24:53 AM »
It should be noted that at the bottom of his post it says....

Colton L. Fleetwood
NMLRA Junior Field Rep. Coordinator

So although I do not know anyone who can fix his rifle he is still looking for help with a name. ::)

Oops, missed that.  Sorry.
Gus