Hunting Frock and hat

[heelerau]

Gents am looking at commissioning Jas Townsend to make me a hunting frock. Now as I live down under and hunt only in the Winter green will be the  likely choice of colour. I see choices in material range from cotton canvas and linen. For damp conditions would canvas be best? Which material just as an aside would be the most historically correct? My other querie is what sort of felt had? I am not keen on tricorn, bicorn or the like, and assume a round crowned floppy brim type hat might be the go.


cheers and Happy New year all from down under !!

Gordon

[skillman]

I have a Hunting Frock that was made of cotton. I tea stained it but that has worn/washed out long ago. It is the natural color anymore with some stains tor patina. I have worn it for about 15 years now and it is still going strong. I would highly recomend the cotton. I have been known to spray it with a silicone water repellent that we use on our tents and it is surprisingly waterproof.
A  simple wool brimmed hat would be a very correct choice for a  number of periods. You can decorate it with bands or feathers or---

Steve

[Artificer]

Gordon,

Cotton cloth came into the American Colonies in the 18th century from India, Egypt and some cloth made from cotton in England from cotton that came from those two countries.  However, cotton cloth was EXPENSIVE and so it was not a common material at all for Hunting Shirts and would have been rare to almost nonexistent unless the owner was a person of some wealth.  The problem was that someone who could afford cotton cloth usually did not dress in hunting shirts, but if they did, they likely used linen cloth like everyone else.

I will sheepishly admit that when I am in the uniform of a Private Soldier in the Major’s Coy (Company) of the 42nd  Royal Highland Regiment, The Black Watch, and reenacting here in Virginia; I CHEAT and wear a cotton shirt (instead of a linen shirt) under my weskit and Regimental Coat MOST of the year and especially when it is so hot and humid in the summer.  Now, there was absolutely no way a British enlisted man (and certainly not a Private Soldier) would have had a cotton shirt UNLESS perhaps if he was serving in India.   There is some evidence that SOME wealthier Officers here had cotton shirts, but that’s all.  

Wool was the common material for protection against rain and snow in our period.  Wool Great Coats or Frock coats were imported pre-made in large quantities to the American Colonies and seem to have been “cheap enough” that many of the lower classes could afford them.  The Cape on these coats was meant to protect against water soaking into the cloth over the shoulders and chest.  However linen could not shed water, so the capes on hunting shirts were more for decoration than anything else.

Of course “sail cloth” or other types of canvas material was available at least in the Tidewater regions of the Colonies, but there is little to no evidence this material was used on original hunting shirts.

“Oil Cloth” or “Oiled Cloth” was also available and this shed water better, but there is little mention of it for Hunting shirts.  The fact it was made using linseed oil and/or sometimes wax added for further waterproofing, probably was the reason it was used for roof covering and floor cloths.
http://oilclothblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/history-of-oilcloth.html

Information on Hunting Shirts:
http://www.academia.edu/3336557/_kind_of_armour_being_peculiar_to_America_The_American_Hunting_Shirt

Information on fringing on hunting shirts:
www.nhursttailor.com/N.Hurst_Tailor/Research_files/Fringe.pdf

Information on use of Hunting Shirts in the Seven Years War in Virginia:

“ (George) Washington succeeded in putting his men into hunting shirts and leggings in 1758, before resigning his commission at the end of that year, to take a seat in the House of Burgesses as a delegate from Frederick County in 1759.iii

http://research.history.org/DigitalLibrary/View/index.cfm?doc=ResearchReports%5CRR0049.xml

Information on making a hunting shirt:
http://ofsortsforprovincials.blogspot.com/2011/06/reproducing-hunting-shirt-quick-and.html

Hope this helps,
Gus

[skillman]

I guess we need to establish a more exact date and definition of what is wanted.  Hunting shirt, hunting frock, hunting frock coat? Colonial or United States?

Steve

[Artificer]

I guess we need to establish a more exact date and definition of what is wanted.  Hunting shirt, hunting frock, hunting frock coat? Colonial or United States?

Steve

You betcha, Steve,

The problem for us is that even original accounts use different terms for the same garments OR the author/s expect the reader knows what he/she was talking about. 

A Hunting Frock for example could have been a woolen cloth coat and tailored in some accounts.  I don't think it is an exaggeration that when they used the term "Frock," they often or usually meant a woolen cloth.  In other accounts, the word "Frock" was used to describe what the garment was used for and sometimes for linen "Hunting Shirts."

Gus

[heelerau]

Gents,
           the period would be the late 1780's or there abouts.  United States, Lancaster County to be more precise. This Hunting Frock, is an over shirt with double caped shoulders, with a lot of frayed edges a bit like Daisy Dukes denim shorts !!  Have a look on the Jas Townsend and Son website. To my uneducated eye they look like an over coat, I have seem to seen them called shirts as well.
      I will go with linen, funny how cotton was more expensive in those days  and linen cheaper, now it is vice a versa !! I might try staining it with tea to take the edge off the colour.
        Looks to me these shirts could break up your outline abit like a yowie suit our Digger snipers use, but not so extreme !! Silicone spray is a good idea, mind you if I get soaked so might my priming !
       Our pioneers would have only had mostly muskets, fowling pieces, the Squatters may have had some fine English hunting rifles, but we did not have long hunters as such. A few escaped convicts in Van Diemans Land (Tasmania) is as close as we may have got, and they would not have carried rifles. A simple wool brimmed hat will also be good, colour ? my hats are normally just natural grey.
    Would have these shirts been more common to farmers going hunting rather than long hunters who I suspect may have preferred  buckskin? Thank you all for your advice.


Cheers

Gordon

[Artificer]

Gordon,

OK, I went back again and looked closely at what Townsend refers to as a Hunting Shirt and a Hunting Frock.  I have ordered a LOT of stuff from Townsend over the years and driven by his shop in Indiana three or four times, but unfortunately never when the shop was open.  Gritted my teeth each time as once or twice I missed it being open by only an hour or two.  I wanted to make that clear so no one thinks I'm being too critical of his descriptions of  these items. Though I have never asked him, I BELIEVE he uses the two terms to differentiate between his "Pull Over" Hunting Shirt and a "Split Front" Hunting "Frock" for advertising purposes and/or not to confuse customers. 

The more research you do, you will find there is almost or no historic reference for "Hunting Shirts" in the 18th century and especially the 1780's time period that were "Pull Overs" or IOW, were not "Split Front."  Authentic Hunting Shirts were "Split Front" and often reached down to between the thigh  and knee in length and may have had one or two capes.  There are original references that tell of using one or both tails of the “Split Front” to be pulled up and stuck in the belt or sash to form a pocket when they wanted or needed one.   So, bottom line is you are getting a much more historically correct “Hunting Shirt” when you order the “Hunting Frock” from Townsend. 

Your mention of a “Yowie” suit piqued my interest when you mentioned Digger Snipers.  I had to look the term up and found out it is what our Marine Snipers call a Ghillie Suit.  Since one of the things Marine RTE Armorers were responsible for doing was building and rebuilding Sniper Rifles, I’ve seen a LOT of Ghillie suits in my 26 years in the Corps. 

A Hunting Shirt will break up your outline a bit, but not nearly as much as a Ghillie Suit and not as much as you might expect.  At 75 to 100 yards in the woods, your outline still looks like a man when wearing one, but it does bring up a good point.   It seems the original Hunting Shirts still extant are often white or natural color.  It MAY and probably is true that some of them just washed out since dye colors were not as steadfast in those days.  There are accounts the shirts were dyed other colors including shades of red. 

Now, personally, the LAST color I would want to dye a Hunting Shirt is red, which makes you a GREAT target in the woods for hostiles.  The problem is a white or off white color stands out almost as much and sometimes more in the forest!!   We also know that the two colors the human eye picks up first in low light (as when first light is coming as the sun is just beginning to come up) are green and blue.  I would choose a tan or light to medium brown color myself in that time period to make it easier to “keep my hair in place.”   A Bark Tan or Grey color would also be good to make it harder to spot you.  .

Grey was not a common color for a hat in that time period for the lower classes.   The common colors used by Longhunters and frontiersmen were black or a dark reddish brown because that was what was available to them most often and those are good colors in the woods.

Now a really worn black hat may have washed out to a dark grey over time, but that would have been a very well used and worn hat and it would not have had an even grey color.  Actually, we have joked a washed out black wool felt hat that did not have good color fast dye in it looks so splotchy that “it almost looks diseased.”  Grin. 

Hope this helps.
Gus
 

[heelerau]

Gus,
        thanks mate, I will look at one of those floppy brim, round crown hats that Townsend has, will suit our conditions more than fur hat of some sort!!.
      My mother when I was a child on the sheep and cattle station (ranch) used to collect all sorts of plants and fungus and did a lot of experimenting with them as natural dyes, fixed with alum. Mostly a lot of browns a and red browns.  She still spins and weaves, has made me some nice inkle weave straps for powder and shot flasks.
      I could possibly dye the shirt with something like that, as I said just to take the edge of the white. I imagine these shirts were a progression from what the English bowmen used when out hunting. I will get the War Office to measure me up over my normal clothing and be in touch with these blokes fairly soon, should have it by our coming Winter.

cheers

Gordon

[VALongrifle]

Gordon,

I agree with Artificer...Linen split front shirt with a black round brim riflemans hat would be my bet.  I portray Virginia frontier militia of the "French War" and this is what was common at the time, and is what we find in Dodderidge and other resources.  Fly front breeches were common...everything in earth tones, including blue...and blue wool leggings were ordered by Major Washington for the Virginia Regiment...keep inmind that all of this is 1758ish time period.  Things changed by 1780, but not too much amongst those on the Frontier.

I recommend reading Pilgrim's Journey by Mark Baker...Oh, and I have a Jas Townsend hunting "frock" and love it...Linen and wool stay warm when wet...and again...cotton gets cold, and is not period correct, as Artificer pointed out.

Semper Fi,
Pat

[heelerau]

Pat, thanks for the additional advise, guess will have to post a photo when it all get down under !!


Cheers

Gordon

[David R. Pennington]

Gordon, I like wool and linen. Cotton, while probably not HC is also a very poor insulator when wet. I made a fringed pullover out of heavy natural coarse linen. It makes a good hunting shirt in warm weather and a good layer in cooler weather. I made an open front caped hunting "frock" out of some olive/grey/drab wool broadcloth. I really like it for fall hunting. I fringed it with linen strips as the broadcloth won't ravel. England exported lots of wool cloth to the colonies in 18th cent.. I made a waistcoat out of a coarse woven light brown wool jean cloth and a pair of drop front overalls out of the same broadcloth as my frock but I dyed it a dark brown.
I converted my brown tricorn to a floppy brim the first time I hunted in the rain with it. The only practicality I see in a tricorn is for a soldier so he doesn't knock his hat off when he shoulders his musket.
The fringe is functional and fashionable. It does help break up your outline in the woods, but it also helps your clothes dry out quicker as it wicks the moisture out and it evaporates quicker off the individual threads.
A lot of the historical accounts on the western frontier refer to homespun linsey-woolsey and buckskin garments. I haven't been able to find any source so far for affordable linsey- woolsey, but I am working on getting enough deer hides tanned. I even read one account of cloth being woven on the frontier out of buffalo hair and stinging nettle plant fibers.
After tanning my first deer hide I said I could understand why the Indians went mostly naked. It's a lot of work!

[Jerry V Lape]

 Linen is quite comfortable in warm weather and apparently the long hunters had a preference for native American breech clout and leggings for freedom of movement and comfort in warm weather.  Often wondered how a set of buckskins would smell after a week on the trail.  The game animals down wind would probably have a 2 day warning of your arrival!  Having wandered the Alleghenys in PA many summers as a kid, I know that any clothing could be stifling on warm humid days.  Haven't tried buckskins so I can only guess they are more suitable for the colder months. 

[heelerau]

Gents, a mate of mine and some others on this forum wears indian leg gins and breech clout, I not so sure about that down here in winter, guessing some fly fronted pants.
      Have often wondered whether our kangaroo would make a decent set of buckskins, we do have deer down under but not common or easy to get access to where they are. I have felt your buckskin jackets, it is like heavy cloth. My mother knitted me a homespun jumper when I was 15, every now and then she pulls it apart, skeins it, washes it and re knits it again, and it comes up like new ( an about to turn 53 this month) trouble is winters in Western Australia rarely get cold enough to warrant a jumper. When on army excursive  for a week or two with out washing you shore get gamey!! guess you need to be down wind of any game to get near .

Cheers

Gordon

[Artificer]

Gordon,

Sounds like some wonderful life experience your Mum had from growing up on a Cattle Station and using Inkle Looms and using organic materials to dye things.   God Bless her and all Mothers in all time periods.  

As others have mentioned, the fact that cotton is a poor insulator, is part of the reason it became so popular in warm to hot climates.  It “covers one’s nekkidness” (nakedness) while not giving you heat exhaustion or heat stroke as body heat escapes more readily from cotton cloth.  However, lack of insulation is not often a good thing for clothes worn outside in the elements all the time.  

Another thing about “Open Front” or “Split Front” Hunting Shirts is you can easily belt them open when it is very hot to let excess body heat out, and wrap them around when it gets a bit chilly.  This is something that is not often mentioned in original accounts, but since “everyone knew it at the time,” there would have been no reason to mention it.

I happen to know that “Roo” Skins DO make a good substitute for buckskin when the Roo Skins are brain/smoke tanned or Vegetable/bark tanned in the old ways prior to chrome tanning.  Friends of mine who taught Ordnance Classes in Australia over the years brought back such a tanned Roo Skin for me.  However, original period tanned buckskins are cold and clammy and can be downright miserable when it’s damp or wet.  Most Frontiersmen from the 18th to the middle of the 19th century wore wool clothes when they could in the cold, at least until they wore out those clothes.  19th century Trappers and Mountain Men used to change into their “Best Buckskins” just before showing up at a Rendevous, but put their wool clothes back on in later/colder months.

However, Buckskin Breeches were THE Tradesman’s or  working man’s preferred choice of material in the 18th century much as “Blue Jeans” are today.  Some were also made from sheep skins without the wool on them and other leathers.  I don’t know how many tens of thousands of deer skins were exported from America back to Britain and other European Countries in the 18th century to make Buckskin Breeches for Tradesmen and Gentlemen.   There even was a short period in the early 19th century where it became “in fashion” for the wealthier classes to wear them for outdoor or sporting use, though of course those breeches were made as fancy as possible.  Here are some links about “buckskin” breeches.  
http://twonerdyhistorygirls.blogspot.com/2010/10/perfect-pair-of-gentlemans-buckskin.html

http://twonerdyhistorygirls.blogspot.com/2013/04/more-about-buckskin-breeches.html

http://twonerdyhistorygirls.blogspot.com/2013/09/even-more-about-buckskin-breeches.html

I have comfortably worn leggins and breech clout in colder weather down to about 20 Degree’s Fahrenheit and a feilebeg or Philabeg (the spelling depends on the time period the term it is used) Short Kilt and Hose down to a little under 30 Degree’s.  This even though modern Tartan Plaid (pronounced “Played”) material is not as thick and stiff as original 18th century Plaid issued to Scottish Soldiers for their Kilts and Philabegs.  Period Scottish Hose material was MUCH thicker than the “socks” worn by many today and are sewn up the back in what is called “Bag Hose.”   The “secret” to keeping warm with either of these period lower body coverings in cold weather is to limit the amount of skin exposed to the cold.  A Hunting Shirt or Hunting Frock that goes down to between the thigh and knee keeps the skin from being openly exposed to the cold.  However, even Highland Scots used wool “Trews” or trousers when the weather got colder than that and what was called “overalls” in our time period.  

The first year I participated in “The Reenactment of the Battle that never happened, in Honor of George Washington’s Birthday” in January at Fort Ward in Alexandria, VA – in “The Major’s Coy” of the Black Watch: we were told this was the ONLY reenactment where we were allowed to use “Military Overalls” instead of Philabegs and Hose because it could get pretty cold.  Actually this is just an example of a Period Skirmish we put on then “for show” and to honor Washington’s Birthday. Well, for some strange reason the Military Overalls I made whilst in my 20’s no longer quite fit in my late 40’s.  Grin.  

Even though I lost my resistance to cold after a tour in Somalia a few years before, I decided I was GOING to give it my best shot in Philabeg and Hose, but I bought a pair of “High Tech Polypropylene” briefs to wear under the Philabeg to help protect “the nether regions” against the cold.  (Our Unit allows one to wear briefs or period underwear under our Philabegs if the member wants to for “modern modesty,” but that was the ONLY time I wore anything under my Philabeg so as to otherwise be “authentic.” )  

However, as we were “forming up” to prepare to march out to our Battle Position, my Philabeg kept falling down as it was slipping on the slippery Polypropylene material.  In disgust, I went into a “Porta Potty” and stripped off those briefs and that allowed the Philabeg to securely stay in place.  When I opened the door of the Porta Potty, it had begun snowing large fat snow flakes and it was down to the low 30’s degrees. “ Oh, GREAT!!” I thought.  “Wonder if I’m going to freeze something off ?!!”  Still I was determined to “give it a go.”  Fortunately it stopped snowing a half hour later and before we moved out to take up our positions.  

We don’t wear our Philabegs QUITE as short as was done in the 18th century Highland Units, but they still don’t go down to the top of the knee.  That leaves exposed skin between the top of the Bag Hose and the bottom of the Philabeg.  However, MUCH to my surprise, I did not feel cold there whilst standing in formation or in most of the battle reenactment UNTIL after I had “taken a hit” and was on the ground “playing dead.”   That’s when a STRONG and cold wind blew up the gulley behind us and right up our Philabegs as we lay on the ground!!   The tourists watching the reenactment noted “the cries of the wounded soldiers on the ground” were VERY lifelike…..”  We found that funny later on, but not then.  Well, “the wounded  and dead” managed to all move our legs pointing a different direction so as not to freeze our nether regions.  Grin.  

For many British Reenactors here, when a battle reenactment is over, someone sounds “By the order of His Majesty, King George, ARISE and To Arms!!”   Now, this is merely a fancy way of saying “Ok, those playing wounded and dead can get up now as the show is over.”  I was NEVER so happy to hear that order as that day when we could get up off the cold ground.  GRIN.

Gus