Lock Choice

[David R. Pennington]

In the planning stages for another build. I have a 13/16 straight .45 cal. barrel 48 inches long and a good curly maple blank. I am leaning to another southern style rifle. Page 147 in Lambert and Whisker's "Gunsmiths of West Virginia" pictures a real plain rifle with pleasing lines I want to use as inspiration.
Any guesses as to school, maker, date on this rifle?
 It's hard to tell in black and white if the mounts are iron or brass, but I plan to forge the hardware and make the triggers, etc.,... The wire inlay around the grease hole is interesting. I'm thinking about incorporating the design into a plain iron patch box with the wire inlay trim in silver wire.
Well, back to my main question, I need to decide which lock to use. I have a large Siler kit on hand and I believe I can modify the octagon pan to round and reshape the hammer some. I could shorten the lock plate tail just a bit and get it pretty close to what is pictured on this rifle. OR-- I have a little L&R #1700 Manton style which I believe is a little later style than the lock on the pictured rifle, but I really like the way these little locks perform.
Any input would be appreciated.

[Larry Luck]

David,

Of the two, the Manton would be the better choice from a HC perspective.  I have one that I may use on a .45 13/16" barrelled rifle.  I was messing with that lock tonight.  Before I decide, I need to clean up the internals a little.  The bearing surfaces (other than the plate) are still in the as-cast condition and it appears to have a lot of internal friction.  Once I do some polishing, I'll know better if I'll use it.  How does your Manton spark?

The Germanic Siler would not really be found on a Southern rifle.  I've seen how they can be modified to sort of look more English, but I'd probably save it for a rifle where it would be appropriate or sell/swap it for something else.

I also have a Chambers Late Ketland and a Davis Classic Ketland, both of which are great sparkers right out of the box.  The Manton might fit my precarve a little easier, but I'm tempted to go with the Davis or Chambers locks.

Good luck on the project.

Larry Luck

[David R. Pennington]

I built up one of the little Mantons for my Dad's rifle and was really impressed with it so I asked for and got one for Christmas. I will definitely clean up the internals but I don't know how it sparks yet as it has a problem. The threads in the cock for the top jaw screw seem to be stripped and I don't think it would hold a flint. The internals seem to be fine though. I tried calling them last week but they are out till Monday I guess.
I have drawn out the Siler full scale on tracing paper and it could be modified to be very close to the pictured rifle lock I believe. I have a Siler on my .50 and it has been very dependable although not the fastest lock I suppose.
I have a Chambers round face on my .62 and it sparks like the 4th of July!

[Acer Saccharum]

I would think anything later English would be more appropriate than Germanic.

[Mark Elliott]

The Manton is the most HC choice but it needs some work.   At the very least,  I turn/polish the tumbler(anneal first, then re-heat treat), install bushings(bronze for plate, steel for bridle) for the tumbler axles in the lock plate and bridle, and reposition the bridle, if necessary, to make the tumbler perpendicular to the plate.   If  the person who built the lock did a good job of positioning everything, then it shouldn't be too much work.   Also,  I find I can improve the spark by re-heat treating the frizzen using Kasenite on the face and tempering to 375F.   This is all in addition to normal tuning.

[Bill of the 45th]

I would go with the Manton, or buy or trade for a Chambers Late Ketland.  If you want to convert the Siler, check out Steve Bookouts site, he has a writeup on converting the Siler, and has done it on a number of his Southern guns.  I can send pic's of the one I have if you like.  Unless you want your rifle to look like the weird stuff that Track, and Pecatonica try to pass off as a southern rifle with a German lock, even though there's thirty to forty years of research that says there is no such thing.  Sorry for the rant, it just drives me crazy to see such abominations.

Bill

[David R. Pennington]

Mark,I wish all the lock makers would offer their locks as kits. Some of the locks I've used turned out to be more work fixing completed locks than it would have been to build from castings. The other Manton I used I built up out of parts. I think I turned a bushing for the plate and I just brazed up the bridle pivot hole and re drilled. The frizzen I bought for it sparks very well. Will the steel in them not harden that you need casenit? The Siler kits I've used had frizzens that hardened very well without casenit.
Bill, do you have an address for Steve's site? I would like to see those pictures. By the way I have one of those abominations. My first build is one. I didn't know any better at the time. I had no idea how to proceed but wanted to build a rifle. I found a distant relative who had an original rifle I made a pattern from. The problem was the lock was missing from this rifle. I used a Siler kit and ended up with a very serviceable albeit ugly rifle. I keep saying I'm going to try and fix it someday. There is enough extra wood I left on the fore end to kindle several fires if I should try and bring it to proper proportions. It did shoot well. On my best days I could get 2.5" groups at 100 yards with it.

[Bill of the 45th]

Steve's site is WWW.toadhallrifleshop.com

Bill

[David R. Pennington]

Thanks

[Bob Roller]

From what I have learned over a 50+year time,cast frizzens need a boost
with an introduction of carbon such as from the rapidly vanishing Kasenit.
I have talked to degreed metallurgists about his and have been told that
carbon loss occurs in the casting process.I have tried to harden frizzens by
simply heating,holding and quenching in cold brine and the results were not
what I wanted.This was done with the 1095 that is used in many cast frizzens.
I started using 52-100 in 1980 and most of these locks went to Europe for use
on target pistols and so far,no reported trouble.
Back when new made flintlocks started to appear,the material of choice was
8620,a fine material for plates and hammers but no good for frizzens.
Last year I made a breech from 8620 and it machines like a dream and takes
fine threads and can be case hardened for decorative purposes if wanted.
I bought some Cherry Red "hardening powder"at Friendship last Fall but have
yet to try it on a frizzen.It seems to work on triggers but I can't get the colors
I want with it.
The 52-100 was boosted with Kasenit and quenched in warm oil.I tried cold oil and
saw hairline cracks along the edges of the frizzen.
Bill Cox at L&R is using 52-100 and told me he wished he had paid closer attention
to my advice earlier.I use the external parts of their Manton,Egg and Ashmore locks
and make up a bench crafted mechanism for each of them and the 52-100 frizzens
easily withstand the hit they get from the heavily preloaded mainsprings I make for
them.

Bob Roller

[Mark Elliott]

David,

Bob pretty much answered to your question about using the Kasenite and the frizzens.  I use it because heating the frizzen up to harden it burns carbon out of the surface where you need it on frizzens.    Frizzens don't need to be hard in the center, just on the face; and heating them up to recrystallization temp looses carbon and hardness on the surface.  Adding a little Kasenite makes sure you have a hard surface.  I quench the way I would normally for the steel involved which is generally warm quench oil.   You also need to add a little Kasenite when you re-harden files or any cutting tool you can't sharpen or hone.   

[Jim Kibler]

I've never used any Kasenite on 1095 cast frizzens and they work fine.  I don't think Chambers uses it in his process either.  Kasenite is such a thin treatment (in the neighborhood of a few thousandths) I don't really see the point.  When hardening, I use a torch with a slightly carburizing flame, but not sure that is even necessary.  A few swipes against the wheel of a belt sander after hardening ensures any decarb that might have been present is gone.  A drum sander in a drill press would do the same thing. 

[Bob Roller]

I've used a small amount of Kasenit on the 52-100 frizzens I mentioned earlier and most of them have been  in use for about 30years and some of the pistols have had multiple owners. Helmut Mohr,a dealer and maker of these guns told me that the only frizzen he had to replace on one of these locks was one that was broken when the pistol got knocked off a bench and landed upside down on concrete.Herr Mohr was several times World Champion in International competitions and he has again asked me to help him with another re-creation of his LePage pistols.Various methods and materials are fine,results are final.

Bob Roller

[Jim Chambers]

Just for the record, all the Siler and Chambers frizzens are cast out of 1095 steel, but the foundry adds a little more carbon to the mix before pouring.  Yes, in the casting process a tiny amount of carbon is lost from the surface.  To compensate for this we pack all of our new frizzens in a carbon rich material as soon as we receive them from the foundry and cook them for five hours at 1700 degrees.  This restores any carbon lost in the casting process and probably adds more to the first few thousandths of the surface.  When we are ready to harden frizzens, like Jim Kibler recommended, we heat with an oxy-acetylene torch using a carburizing flame to hopefully add even more carbon for better sparking.  Quench in room temp oil (NEVER water) and draw at 375 to 400 degrees.  Using kasenit  or any other carbon material is usually not necessary.
Jim Chambers

[Mark Elliott]

Just for the record,  I use either an electric heat treat oven or a gas forge for all my heat treating.   Therefore the only way I have of putting carbon back in the surface of a frizzen or other part is to use Kasenite or some other similar product.   Of course, as Jim Kibler said,  you could just hit the frizzen with a belt sander, if you have one.  I do not have a belt sander that would work on a curved surface.  Otherwise,  I would probably do that.    I do have a couple cans of Kasenite that I keep handy in the shop and at the forge.  It is as easy for me to dip a part in a can of Kasenite as it is for somebody else to use a belt sander.  There is more than one way to skin a cat.   It just depends on the tools you have.  I guess the important part here is to realize that when you heat up steel past its recrystalization temp (bright red or there abouts - I know color is subjective)   then you are going to loose carbon, and the ability to harden a very thin layer on the surface of the part.   You have to deal with that in some way.   I should probably also mention that I only put the Kasenit on the face of the frizzen.   I just heat to red in the forge, touch the face to the Kasenit, put it back in the forge, bring it up to hardening temp, and quench.   I only use the Kasenite the way Jim and Jim use a carburizing flame.

[David R. Pennington]

Excellent info. Thanks for clearing that up. Jim, like I said your locks spark like crazy, now we know why.

[Acer Saccharum]

Just for the record,  I use either an electric heat treat oven or a gas forge for all my heat treating.   Therefore the only way I have of putting carbon back in the surface of a frizzen or other part is to use Kasenite or some other similar product.   ....

You could pack your parts in charcoal in a airtight crucible in your furnace.....

[Mark Elliott]

You could pack your parts in charcoal in a airtight crucible in your furnace.....

Yes, Tom,  I could do that; but for otherwise hardenable frizzens,  the Kasenite is easier and quicker.   I would do exactly as you suggest for a color case or to case harden wrought iron parts, but that is an hours long process.