Author Topic: non lead projectile test  (Read 20029 times)

Offline axelp

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non lead projectile test
« on: January 23, 2009, 07:44:33 PM »
I ordered a pound of bismuth...its in the mail.

My plan is to add 3-5% of tin to the bismuth and mold .440 ball from it.

For the test, I thought I would shoot at a target marked on a firewood round at 25 yards. Will that be adequate to test the balls penetration and whether it will hold together in a hunting situation?

I figure if:

1. I can hit the target the same, and
2. the ball penetrates the same depth as a lead roundball and does not fragment, then we have a winner?

I will test on separate targets the following: (trying to keep all else consistent)

1. standard soft lead roundball (as a control)
2. bismuth roundball
3. barnes conical copper sabot

Have I missed anything?

Ken






Galations 2:20

Offline Roger B

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2009, 07:49:06 PM »
Great idea!  Are you going to use the same rifle for all three projectiles?  The reason that I ask is that the saboted bullet may not shoot very well from a round ball twist barrel.  I personally don't know, because I've never shot them.
Roger B.
Never underestimate the sheer destructive power of a minimally skilled, but highly motivated man with tools.

Offline axelp

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2009, 12:07:38 AM »
yes-- same gun.

Its a 45.5" long swamped roundball barrel made by Hoyt,  .45 caliber... I wanted to try the sabots even though I have heard that they are not supposed to be very good in a slow twist barrel. If the Bismuth doesnt hold together, then maybe I can get "good nuff" acuracy for hunting out of the sabots... I figure it was worth adding them to the test.

I am hoping that the bismuth/tin roundball will do the trick.

 I might have a friend do the same test with his .50 cal longrifle at the same time...he is a better shot than I am.

Axe
Galations 2:20

Daryl

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2009, 01:47:20 AM »
Ken - one of the problems with sabots in deep rifling, is the sabot cannot expand to reach the bottom of the grooves, thus flame blasts by like a furnace, melting the plastic and spraying it onto the bore.  Apparently it is difficult to remove.  I would forget the sabots and solid copper bullets and concentrate on making the bismuth shoot well. More tin might help to soften the bismuth if needed. A slightly smaller size (did I say that?) in RB might help.  Lee makes a .433" DC round ball mould. I suspect the bismuth doesn't stick to aluminum. The smaller ball may, with heavier patch, allow better loading and lubrication without cutting the patches on the lands due to tight loading with the larger ball.  you have to get to the bottom of the grooves and if the ball is too large, the patch must impress into the ball too hard, and willcut or become impossible to load. Too, you can try an easier loading patch, with a wad of some sort between the powder and the ball.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 01:47:56 AM by Daryl »

Offline axelp

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 02:53:33 AM »
Thanks all,

The .440 is pretty easy to load in my .45. I usually shoot .445...  So I figured it would accomodate a thicker patch? --I hope it will work as I do not have access to any other mold than the .440!!

What about  using the copper bullet only, without the plastic sabot?---just use a rather thick leather patch and maybe even an over powder card? I dont want to coat my bore in burned plastic...nope.

I apreciate the input guys... someone with much more savvy should be doing this other than me!

Also what about the target? will a pine round  be too hard and not be a fair test for the bismuth? I thought about stacking 1 gallon jugs filled with water back to back... BUT I wanted part of the test to simulate a ball hitting a heavy bone...


Axe
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 02:57:17 AM by Ken Prather »
Galations 2:20

Daryl

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2009, 03:21:50 AM »
You could always take a page from my friend Rod's testing - he uses 1/2" ply, water jug (milk jug full of water) then 1/2" board, then jug, 1/2" board then jug, etc. He's found over the years, using the same stuff in comparison against a myriad of rifle calibres & loads, that 2 boards and 2 jugs is equal to descent results with rib shots animals including elk, deer, bear, etc from 6.5's to .375's.  More is always better - never forget that.  You may be surprised at how well a round ball does.  000 Buckshot almost makes it, not quite - that's .35" to .36" @ 1,300fps MV which is a squirrel load in a .36 cal. ML rifle.

As to a solid copper projectile in a cloth envelope - well, you could try it.  Seems to me the Barnes bullets for .45 cal sabots are .358's in around 125gr. to 150gr. I'd as soon make a bismuth ball work.  Because it's solid copper, it's much longer than a lead core with guilding metal jacket.  That slug needs a much faster twist than your barrel provides - faster than 20", in fact about 18" would be about minimum for around 1,500fps.  If you could drive them at over 2,000fps, you might get away with 20".  That would take about 100gr. of 2f - maybe 80gr. 3F might come close.  I suspect your rifle barrel has a 60" twist, but could be 56" or 48" as well - all very much too slow for solid copper conical pistol bullets.

  Don't take my work for it though, I'm a bit biased and stranger things have happened- maybe they'll shoot.  They won't be stable after impact with an animal, but they may shoot with some modicum of accuracy.  You'll need a short starter with a cupped nose that closely fits your bore, to hold the bullet's nose centred. This is also the problem with shooting picket bullets.  The ramrod shouldalso have this bullet-nose shape on the tip, to keep the bullet centred as it's pushed down the bore. After pushing the bullet down into the bore a ways, rotate the starter to ensure the nose if centred with the bore's axis.  Lot's of trouble for no gain me thinks.

Offline axelp

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2009, 03:46:59 AM »
Thanks Daryl. I feel like a fish outta water with this... I have very little experience in ballistics etc... so not sure as to how great this experiment will be, but if I can get a bismuth ball to work in my longrifle, then my collegues and I  can hunt in my woods again with our flintlocks... and that would really be great.

Axe
Galations 2:20

Daryl

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2009, 05:27:04 AM »
Good luck, Ken - keep as abridged of your results. Your tests will result  in information I'll need.  MORE INPUT!

crispy

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2009, 09:25:18 PM »
was just wondering? why can't you use lead? some misguided enviromental law? And if so could you possibly use some of that( lead free) solder that is being used these days for plumbing,,, or is it too hard too ?

crispy

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2009, 10:34:17 PM »
got myself thinking , so I went to basement and cast up a ball for comparison, Lee 490 RB mold,pure bond lead free solder from NY.weighs116.1gr,, my lead balls weigh in at 178.2gr from same mold, lead is from soft roof flashings. the lead free seem pretty hard and when dropped from 3 feet they bounce about 5 inches compared to about 2 inches for the lead ,, this is a very scientific process requiring the ball to roll off the table and drop to the cement floor.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2009, 11:11:01 PM »
was just wondering? why can't you use lead? some misguided enviromental law? And if so could you possibly use some of that( lead free) solder that is being used these days for plumbing,,, or is it too hard too ?

Lead free solder is 15-16 bucks a pound. 15-20 times current scrap lead price.

If you are not aware of the assault of lead bullets and all forms of ammunition you need to join the NRA or get on some of the shooters sites that allow political discussions. In this manner you can inform yourself of what is really going on. Its going to get very very nasty for shooters by the look of things.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Harnic

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2009, 11:22:25 PM »
Dan, Crispy lives up here in Canada where they haven't moved on banning lead in rifles... yet, they're just banning black powder.  We're under attack everywhere & the United Nation's move to disarm civilians everywhere is looking like distinct possibility.  Scary times ahead guys!

Offline axelp

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2009, 01:01:23 AM »
isnt lead-free solder just tin?


Galations 2:20

Daryl

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2009, 01:14:03 AM »
Lead-free probably has a lot of tin in it - maybe some zinc or other maeable matrial. Straight tin wouldn't bond as a solder, me thinks.

There is a political forum at www.nitroexpress.com if you are interested - lots of good info and some that's pure guess-work- of course hard to know what will come.  DP, I and others are there time to time mostly in other forums there. Lots of good stuff. Steve Zihnn is also there in the BP section. Hard to swallow some of the stuff, like M98's converted into inlines, other gagging stuff as well but a lot of good stuff too.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 06:23:44 PM by Daryl »

Offline axelp

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2009, 08:39:10 PM »
I got the Bismuth in the mail yesterday..... Interesting stuff Bismuth. It looks like lead. It is certainly heavy like lead...
But in this form, it cracks and crumbles like rotted granite or something... I cracked a corner piece off the size of a .45 cal roundball and it crumbled in my hand.

I think in order for this stuff to work its gonna need more than 3% of tin.

I am going to actually use leadfree solder for the additive I think...

I have not tasted it, but doubt it tastes any better than lead... ya think the condors will be able to taste the difference?  ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 08:43:13 PM by Ken Prather »
Galations 2:20

Daryl

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2009, 08:47:13 PM »
 Well, I guess you soon find out how it casts.

Offline axelp

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2009, 10:03:24 PM »
I just read that pure bismuth actually expands as it cools ---about 3% I think it said...  interesting. I figured I would cast a single ball of pure bismuth and test it with a hammer blow. (then compare it to lead)... I will then slowly add measured amounts of lead-free solder until the ball will flatten similar to a lead ball--- or at least not crack apart.... Then mold a bunch of them to do the shooting--accuracy/penetration/hold together tests... I hope all three wild condors appreciate my efforts.

Ken
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 10:05:52 PM by Ken Prather »
Galations 2:20

Offline JCKelly

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2009, 12:25:11 AM »
Common plumbers lead-free solder is 95% tin 5% antimony. Guess it is about $15/# because tin is expensive (and light) Wish I could tell you what the antimony will do but at this point I don't have that information. Yeah, I am a metallurgist but know more about steel, stainless and even bronze than I do bismuth alloys.
I do suspect that More might not necessarily Better. 
More tin makes the balls lighter, I have no idea whether they will be any more ductile than 3% tin.
Electronics guys use alloys such as 99.3% tin. 0.7% copper, and one tradenamed CASTIN that is 96.2% tin 2.5% silver 0.8% copper 0.5% antimony.
Guess you will find all this out.

Offline axelp

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2009, 12:48:52 AM »
I doubt it... I am just a flintlock shooter in a lead ban area of California.

The best I will know is whether some bismuth shiny heavy stuff, combined with some of that lead-free solder junk,  will stay together well enuff, and be accurate enuff to hunt with in the lead ban area....

I am not a metallurgist. I am an advertising art director...(sheesh what the heck am I doing this for?) Someone much more qualified that I should be trying this... Oh well, if I get any decent results, I'll publish an entertaining article in whatever trade pub wants to print it...I plan on taking lots of perty pictures too!!  Hey, if it saves one condor from the evils of lead poisoning from the evil destroyers of bambi, wiley and porky, then I have done my part to---- oh forget it! ::)
Galations 2:20

Leatherbelly

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2009, 04:54:42 AM »
   ...a little off the topic, I scored 125 lbs. of sheet lead today!! How many .395R/B's will that make?

Daryl

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2009, 07:33:30 AM »
I don' t know, LB, but get busy.

Daryl

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2009, 07:34:19 AM »
Looking foreward to your results, Ken.

Offline axelp

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2009, 04:36:47 PM »
Leatherbelly! 125 lbs of lead sends shivers of apprehension thru all 3 Calif Condors feeble lead poisoned hearts... They apparently enjoy roadkill coyote, rolled in sheets of lead like cannelloni... perhaps with a margarita with the glass rim crusted in lead sugar.
Galations 2:20

William Worth

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2009, 06:03:40 PM »
LB,

I expect 55 RB's/lb with .440, for a WAG let's assume...I dunno...60/lb to yield 7,500 RB's from 125lbs?  I can't seem to find any figures for balls/lb in .395.

I think 7,500 would be a conservative number.  I would use that if I was trying to impress chicks. 

Dave Marsh

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Re: non lead projectile test
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2009, 07:03:37 PM »
   ...a little off the topic, I scored 125 lbs. of sheet lead today!! How many .395R/B's will that make?

I got lucky and got 100 lbs of lead free yesterday.  Brother in law is a contractor remodeling a chiropractors office and took out the lead xray shield.   Nice.