How fast is a flintlock?

[Larry Pletcher]

Snipped. . . . .
I had heard from someone that a flint lock was timed pretty well if you prime the pan and fire it upside down and it goes off, or is this an old tale?

We did slow motion video of a number of locks up side down.  They may actually be faster.  The sparks are driven upward into the falling prime. The priming powder falls maybe 1.5 mm before the pan ignites.  On one of the youtube videos we have a Large Siler igniting cannon grade as prime upside down.

Regards,
Pletch

[moleeyes36]

While going from cap to flint, you will notice a difference for awhile.  If you stay with the flintlock, that difference will disappear as you accept your flintlock shooting as it is and you shouldn't even notice a difference once you're committed to the rock lock.  Like all shooting, follow through with your shot is all so important, and I'd say more so with the flintlock.  Until you actually do it - make the switch from cap to flint, and dedicate yourself to the flintlock - you can't get a complete understanding of the ignition time.  Shooting someones flintlock once, twice or three times, just will not give you the overall picture between the two.  Commit to the flintlock - shoot it a lot - and follow through with your shots.

C.S.

A very good summary indeed.  A flintlock might be a little slower than a percussion gun, but the difference is marginalized once you become accustomed to shooting a flintlock.  If you're serious about improving your shooting, master shooting a flintlock and it will make a better all round shooter out of you.  If ignition time is a person's main concern perhaps they should consider sticking with suppository guns.

[moleeyes36]

Caps are for kids


Centershot AKA  Mr. Flintlock

Boy am I going to get some mileage out of that line!  Thanks.

Mole Eyes

[bob in the woods]

I wish I could remember where I saw this, but there was an example of a flintlock firing well before the hammer/cock was at it's end of travel . ie the sparks got to the pan powder before a cap lock hammer would have traveled to where it contacted the cap with resulting firing of the cap and ignition of the main charge. The issue is that this only happens sometimes.
You can't count on it, so ...on average, the caplock is faster.  

[blaksmth]

I know some guys that are absolutely amazing with flinters as far as shooting them , we had a contest at a shoot once , it consisted of each person shooting at a jug of Bourbon that was tied with a kite string, and the bottle would fall on a pillow,if you missed it was over, if you hit it ,it was retied the string kept getting shorter , and you stayed in.

 Finially it got down to two guys one shooting some kind of Kentucky flinter, and the other guy shooting a plains rifle.shots were fired , strings were re tied. Around 30-40 shots later---------------

  it was agreed upon to toss a coin to see who won, the flinter called the coin heads and won!!!

 That Kid was a good shot and had good nerves I believe it was shot at 25 yards off hand!!!

[Captchee]

  Basically what you are asking is a question that plagues all  ignition designs  to include center fire .
IE how much fast is a bolt action then a hammer action .
 Its still all boils down to one thing .  While the cap lock maybe slightly faster  when crunching the numbers and on paper , if the  total flintlock system is properly made and tuned , you should not be able to discern any noticeable difference in speed of ignition any more then you would notice the difference between  different center fire ignition types 
 If your getting a klatch them boom , something isn’t right  .
 I would also agree with what Mr Getz  stated , but would ad that  many years ago when I switched over to strictly flintlock shooting , I did have issues  . But today  I see a whole lot of what he mentioned . IE cap locks popping  caps  while the flints are still firing .
 But then that’s also a case of knowledge an not a real comparison of the ignition itself as often times new flintlock shooters will have more issues then someone  of the same experience shooting a cap lock . However as that experience grows the pengilum alot of times begins to swing the other way .

[Bob Roller]

We had a friend that could afford any gun he wanted,even from the top shops of England and he has said that for a single shot survival rifle,he would choose a flintlock.

Bob Roller

[EC121]

Be careful.  Shooting a flinter upside down can cause tattoos.  Be sure you have the touch hole pointed away from you.  It is easy just to roll the gun over and pull the trigger without thinking.  The flame and powder specks will go right into your belly.  I have a tattoo from shooting a right-handed gun left-handed.  Somehow I touched the trigger.  Burned right through a tee shirt into my belly.  Also had one go off while priming or knapping the flint.  Don't remember which.  Peppered my hand with powder specks.  Also told a fellow about the upside down test one time, and he just rolled the gun over and pulled the trigger before thinking.  He got his flint shooter's merit badge that day.

[JTR]

Amended.....I found the study.  He was testing from seloniod activation to flash (opticaly detected).  Well, that does nto answer the question.  The question, as I intrepret it, is how fast from sear disengagement to bullet exit.  That would need a different testing protocall.

Scota4570,
I'm sure we'll all look forward to seeing your test results, as compared to the remarkable standard that Pletch has set!

John

[Artificer]

Pletch did set a remarkable standard on testing the speed of lock ignition and that was what he set out to do.  Mission accomplished!   

I agree that incorporating the time it takes for the bullet to travel down the bore and escape the muzzle is interesting and somewhat useful information.  However, that information will change with the powder, powder charge, weight of the ball, patch thickness and lubrication and of course the length of the barrel from gun to gun.  I can not even conceive of how difficult those added test parameters would be to incorporate them in such tests for muzzleloaders.   It is difficult enough to do such tests with different loads and bullets and powder with modern firearms that have standardized barrel lengths and shapes.  Most modern powder companies only do it with their own powders and certain primers in standardized guns and they usually remark such results will change when other variations are introduced. 

The information Pletch provided is interesting and useful to muzzleloaders because it tells us the difference in ignition times of the different types of locks.  IOW, it is a valuable base line of information and I’m sure Pletch would agree it was never intended to be the “do all end all” of the time it takes from releasing the sear to the bullet exiting the muzzle in muzzleloaders.

Gus

[dagner]

  black smith - go to search on on muzzle blasts -about 10 years ago. the bevel brother had a super fast high speed diagnostic camera at friendship  take pictures of very well tuned flintlock action  vs caplock . the darn cameras even had millisecond time stamped pictures. don't hold me to it but I believe they were within 15 miliseconds of each other.the caper was just a very thin hair faster

[Larry Pletcher]

  black smith - go to search on on muzzle blasts -about 10 years ago. the bevel brother had a super fast high speed diagnostic camera at friendship  take pictures of very well tuned flintlock action  vs caplock . the darn cameras even had millisecond time stamped pictures. don't hold me to it but I believe they were within 15 miliseconds of each other.the caper was just a very thin hair faster

There have been two instances when Olympus Industrial had high speed video cameras at Friendship.  These were the spring shoots of 2007 and 2009.  I arranged both of these trips with Olympus reps Grant Ferguson (2007) a Norman Baumgartner (2009).  In both instances we met earlier to get our "ducks in a row".  Grant met me at my home, and we did the first tries - one of these was the complete rifle firing. In 2009 Steve Chapman and I met Norman in May before the shoot.  Below are links to the 07 and 09 videos:

2007 --- http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/slow-motion-at-gun-makers-hall.php

2009 --- http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/new-high-speed-video-from-friendship-09.php

(Because of hacking, these pages may be incomplete.  I hope most are visible.)

The video cams were set at 5000fps, but do NOT have time stamps on the frames.  I have used other playback software that allows frame counts.  From these we can calculate some time, but that has to be done from the first frame showing flint movement and not from sear strike.

Regarding the video of percussion and flintlocks, Lowell Gard brought a small Siler Perc with a drum and nipple welded to the plate.  This is the first and only attempt to video a percussion at 5000fps.  The difference in speeds can be interpreted many ways.   The 15 milliseconds can be looked at as a thin hair faster, but the percussion at .020 is almost twice as fast as the flint.  The videos really tell the tale.  The links below are the same ones I gave earlier. Both were filmed at the sane frame rate.

Siler percussion ---    

Siler flint ---

Comparing these two videos gives you a feel for the difference.  (I should point out that the wait you see in the percussion video is caused by the "shooter" not realizing that the camera was running. He presses the sear about half way through.)

Regards,
Pletch

[Larry Pletcher]

John, Gus,
Thank you for your kind words and confidence.  Science and Flintlocks  make interesting hobbies especially when they can be combined.  Your comments are motivating. 

In answer to a question, a science teacher once said, "Can you design an experiment to find the answer to your question?" I'd guess we have more to find out about flintlocks, and I appreciate ALR as sounding board for ideas.

Best Regards,
Pletch

PS - The question about sear to ball exiting the barrel is something I tried.  I have lost data but have a set of photos that I'll upload showing our basic idea.

[smylee grouch]

Thanks Pletch for all that you have done in your research. I find it interesting, eye opening, and very informative.

[Artificer]

Pletch,

No, thank YOU for sharing the results of your testing with us!

Now if you or someone could design a way to test and see what angle of flint and shape of frizzen made the best sparks and fastest ignition of a flintlock by scientific tests, WOW, THAT would sure be something.........

Gus

[Larry Pletcher]

Pletch,
--snipped--
Now if you or someone could design a way to test and see what angle of flint and shape of frizzen made the best sparks and fastest ignition of a flintlock by scientific tests, WOW, THAT would sure be something.........
Gus

Let's think on that. . . .

Regards,
Pletch

[Larry Pletcher]

This experiment is not on my web site and data has been lost. (I may be able to find paper documentation.) Steve and I compared a small Siler percussion, small Siler flint, and a mule ear lock. Time is taken from the time the solenoid touches the sear until the sabot clears the barrel, so this introduces barrel time as a variable.  We took great pains to be consistent with cleaning and powder charges to keep the comparison fair.


   
This shot shows the complete fixture with the mule ear lock installed.



Here is the shim that contacts the sear and starts time.



Here is the muzzle sensor.  It triggers as the sabot clears the muzzle and exposes the sensor to gases.



Here is the complete set-up with the flintlock installed, the sensors hooked up, and ready to fire.



Another view to the flintlock ready to go.



Here Steve has triggered the solenoid.  The pan has ignited, but the barrel has not. Catching the gun in between pan ignition and barrel ignition is accidental. The shield prevents the barrel sensor from triggering on the pan ignition.



Here the action is ended. Time to clean and reload.



This last photo shows the gun rotated to vertical for loading.  One reason for the sabot is to hold the powder in place as the barrel is rotated back down again.

There are more photos at the link below, but this gives the basics.

http://s93.photobucket.com/user/lpletch/library/Pistol%20Lock%20Tests

Regards,
Pletch

[Daryl]

Some guys shoot incredibly well with a flintlock - Taylor, Neil and LB are in that crowd.  Me? - I shoot fair to middling with a cap-lock only - less well with a flinter, although they are fun to try to get to shoot well. 

There is enough ignition lag for me, for the gun to move off the centre of the target - at about any range - I just don't hold or see that well any more. For me, caplocks are much more accurate - even with the 24" bl. Musketoon is better than my 38" to 42" barreled flintlocks. 

That short little Enfield out-shoots all of them (except for the .69 of course), except off the bags where the guns are very steady and do not move before ignition takes place.

[David R. Pennington]

 I just had to say it, "Flint Rocks!" I haven't had any desire to shoot anything else since I started shooting flintlocks.  I just need to build me a fowler so I can retire the old side by double percussion.
I had one of those old CVA percussion rifles from the 70's that would take about a week and a half to go off.

[blaksmth]

Well I have had some good responses , I never have had a caplock ever not fire fast

[Candle Snuffer]

Well I have had some good responses , I never have had a caplock ever not fire fast

Nor have I...  I have noticed more cap shooters experience hang fires and no fires when their cap went off, but the reason for this is usually that they have swabbed way to heavily with a wet patch between shots and they've accumulated so much damp fouling in the breech that they've had to pull the nipple and put powder in the drum to get their smoke pole to go off.

Now those that swab and then pop a cap afterwards seem to have no trouble at all, but they're using twice as many caps in doing so.  Something that has never made any sense to me, and with the price of caps these days,,, well that's up to them.

I shoot trouble free with both ignition systems, and enjoy both.  If I had to give an edge to one over the other, I'd give up that little ignition time gained with a cap lock and stick with the flintlock.  Probably for no other reason then I really enjoy the flintlock.  Granted, I have more "offhand" successful shooting days with the cap lock over the flintlock, but the shooting enjoyment just isn't as rewarding as it is with the flintlock, and it doesn't take that long to get into the groove of shooting the flintlock and giving the cap shooters a run for their money.

As long as we're all enjoying our traditional muzzle loading shooting, that's the important thing.

[Pete G.]

Well I have had some good responses , I never have had a caplock ever not fire fast

Well I sure have. Carried a rifle all day in cool damp, foggy, misty conditions. When the shot presented itself is was a POP, SSSSS, BOOM. Ball went somewhere midst the trees and nowhere near the deer.

[Dennis Glazener]

I never have had a caplock ever not fire fast

Well I have, plus fail to fire at all. Course this was back in the 70's with a drum and nipple on an old Numrich arms Minuteman but hang fires were pretty common.
Dennis

[little joe]

I,m with dennis on this. Been doing this for44 yrs and I,v saw a lot and help fix a lot of it.Much of the time it is improperly cleaned breech areas. At the last shoot one of the fellows flinter had quarter inch or so build up of crud in the breech as hard as concret, 2 yrs old. Took awhile but we got up and running. Caplocks usually too much oil.

[heelerau]

 I am only a recent convert to flint, (5 or six years) but have been using cap locks since I was about 10, (so over 40 yrs experience) I have experienced ver few miss fires with them.  I mostly just snapped a cap or two before loading.  Since using olive oil in my barrels I do not even need to cap off,with either rifle, gun or revolver. My guess each system of ignition and individual rifle has it s quirks and one you know them, you are pretty right.