How fast is a flintlock?

[blaksmth]

I am probably gonna stir the pot again, But all I have ever made and shot are percussion front stuffers.  So my question is how does a well timed flinter compare to a percussion lock say a mule ear?  I am thinking about perhaps building a flinter, so this is a valid question.

[Candle Snuffer]

I shoot both cap and flint, but lately have shot more flintlock.  To me (and I just go by feel) at this point I feel when I'm shooting my flintlock that it is fast, to the degree that I can't tell a lot of difference.  I think there's so little difference that once you start shooting a well timed flintlock, you would agree.  Just my take from experience, but I know folks crunch the numbers.

Build the flintlock, tune the lock, and go to shooting it.  It's more rewarding (in my humble opinion) then shooting a cap lock.

[SCLoyalist]

Larry Pletcher has done a lot of measurement of flintlock ignition time (including some comparisons with caplock times, as I recall).   His data seems to be offline at present, so I can't give you a reference to quantitative data.   Results have been written up in Muzzle Blasts over the years, if you care to go searching for one of his articles.

What I remember is that caplock ignition is a bit faster than flint (from memory - if the lock time of a Mauser bolt action is 5 milliseconds, the lock time of the percussion was maybe 25 msec, and the flinter 35 or 40 msec).    I know if the lock is properly tuned, with a good flint, as a shooter you can't perceive any delay between when the trigger breaks and the main charge goes 'boom.'   But, there are more things that have to be in proper adjustment on the flinter:   proper hardening of the frizzen, right spring tensions, etc,   and also more things to go wrong (e.g. flint gets loose in the jaws, flint gets dull without you noticing,  you prime too little or too much, etc).

I shoot flinters because flint ignition fits in with the historical time period I'm interested in more than percussion does, and I don't mind the extra challenge to keep everything working in harmony. 

[smylee grouch]

For the most part, perc. is faster but not to the point that it makes a difference when used in a hunting situation. If you are shooting for an X instead of a 10, a perc. might give you some advantage. I have and shoot both but prefer a flinter for hunting hands down. My humble opinion, others may disagree but their wrong. 

[Dphariss]

I am probably gonna stir the pot again, But all I have ever made and shot are percussion front stuffers.  So my question is how does a well timed flinter compare to a percussion lock say a mule ear?  I am thinking about perhaps building a flinter, so this is a valid question.

Not even close.

Dan (47 years shooting flintlocks)

[Dphariss]

Larry Pletcher has done a lot of measurement of flintlock ignition time (including some comparisons with caplock times, as I recall).   His data seems to be offline at present, so I can't give you a reference to quantitative data.   Results have been written up in Muzzle Blasts over the years, if you care to go searching for one of his articles.

What I remember is that caplock ignition is a bit faster than flint (from memory - if the lock time of a Mauser bolt action is 5 milliseconds, the lock time of the percussion was maybe 25 msec, and the flinter 35 or 40 msec).    I know if the lock is properly tuned, with a good flint, as a shooter you can't perceive any delay between when the trigger breaks and the main charge goes 'boom.'   But, there are more things that have to be in proper adjustment on the flinter:   proper hardening of the frizzen, right spring tensions, etc,   and also more things to go wrong (e.g. flint gets loose in the jaws, flint gets dull without you noticing,  you prime too little or too much, etc).

I shoot flinters because flint ignition fits in with the historical time period I'm interested in more than percussion does, and I don't mind the extra challenge to keep everything working in harmony. 

The percussion is fired before the FL even lights the pan.
Look a the slo-mo on Pletchers site.
The time of a FL is the time to light the pan PLUS the time for the priming to make enough heat through the vent to light the main charge.
Percussion when the hammer lands on the cap the explosion lights the main charge.  On a really poor design one may hear the pop of the cap before the main charge clears the barrel but I have only had one of these. I did have a percussion pistol that was very fast. Built with the guts of the percussion version of the L&R 1700 flint, TOW Hawken pistol breech. Faster than a Colt SA for example, maybe like the 1911. No FL is even close if actually timed. To much going on. For example the frizzen moves back and forth a time or two on most locks before the priming is really going well, this is AFTER the cock is stopped.
FL is more of a challenge due to lock time.
The FL requires the shooter to pay attention. I have not had a misfire or flash in the pan HUNTING in 30-35 years. But I have them fairly often in matches since I will shoot a flint till it quits. Loose flints are more common with lead wrap than a decent leather wrap. Leather is also easier on the cock and jaw screw.

Dan

[EC121]

Look at the scores of perc. and flint  national agg. matches at Friendship.  There isn't much difference between the two.  That tells me that a good running flintlock is about the equal of the poplock whatever the lock time is.  Being mostly a back yard fun shooter, the scores aren't a concern.  I like flint for the feeling of accomplishment when it all goes right.     

[Kenny]

I started with a caplock in 1973. I was 8 years old. big old long 'kentucky' as they called them back then. it was a navy arm, 45 cal.grew up on guns but this sucker had quite a learning curve. I just loved it. wouldn't shoot anything else. well after 12 years got a chance on a flintlock, this also had some figgurin out, but now its all I hunt with, rain,snow,dark of the moon, an fl is slower, but on a running deer ive never once noticed it. even targets I don't notice it, once you get used of the little explosion by your head it all just seems normal. there is NOTHIN better than taking a good buck with a FL. or a partridge, coyote, anything... plus you get to carry around a lot more old tymey cool stuff.

kenny

[Artificer]

The FL requires the shooter to pay attention. I have not had a misfire or flash in the pan HUNTING in 30-35 years. But I have them fairly often in matches since I will shoot a flint till it quits. Loose flints are more common with lead wrap than a decent leather wrap. Leather is also easier on the cock and jaw screw.

Dan

Dan’s statement, that I emboldened in the quote above, is completely correct even with the more massive Military Flintlock locks on Flint Muskets.   

When I “came back home” to 18th century Military Reenacting in the 90’s, at first I used the same Brown Bess Carbine I had competed with in the Northwest Trade Gun Matches in the 70’s where we shot both round ball and shot at different targets/stages.  I was “the new guy” in the Major’s Coy of the 42nd RHR, The Black Watch, BUT I had far more experience shooting live rounds than any of the other members. 

I never had a misfire from my Brown Bess Carbine in reenactments and that even when firing 30 to 50 blank rounds in a reenactment, because I had learned to use leather to wrap the flint and how to get the right size flint for the lock and adjust/tighten it properly back in the 70’s..  The other members had a lot more misfires than I did and by my third or fourth reenactment, other members noticed and began commenting on it.  The other members were using lead wraps for the flint and “musket size” flints that were actually too big for their locks, though they did not realize it.  Some were using original and expensive French Musket Flints that were WAY too big for their locks.

That led to members having me go over their muskets and find the correct size flints and leather wraps for their muskets.  I also had to refit the frizzens to the pans on many of the repro’s as priming powder fell out of their pans when doing the “cast about” when reloading.  This because there was too much open space between the top of their pans and the bottoms of their frizzens.   Afterwards, their misfires became seldom to nonexistent, as long as they knapped or changed and tightened their flints when needed.

Gus

[Candle Snuffer]

While going from cap to flint, you will notice a difference for awhile.  If you stay with the flintlock, that difference will disappear as you accept your flintlock shooting as it is and you shouldn't even notice a difference once you're committed to the rock lock.  Like all shooting, follow through with your shot is all so important, and I'd say more so with the flintlock.  Until you actually do it - make the switch from cap to flint, and dedicate yourself to the flintlock - you can't get a complete understanding of the ignition time.  Shooting someones flintlock once, twice or three times, just will not give you the overall picture between the two.  Commit to the flintlock - shoot it a lot - and follow through with your shots.

[Frizzen]

I have won many a percussion agg with my Flint.  Look at this short video I made. Watch it several times

[Standing Bear]

Look at the scores of perc. and flint  national agg. matches at Friendship.  There isn't much difference between the two.  That tells me that a good running flintlock is about the equal of the poplock whatever the lock time is.  Being mostly a back yard fun shooter, the scores aren't a concern.  I like flint for the feeling of accomplishment when it all goes right.     

I have a different explanation of the reason scores are similar. The average flint shooter's average scores are probably below his percussion scores. It's the shooters ability to shoot the top performing rifle. The top flint scores are shot by those who are great percussion shooters and have succeeded in bringing their flint scores to the same level.

I know my percussion scores went up after I started working  on flintlock shooting. Flint shooting has greatly improved all of my shooting including modern and pistol. Proper Trigger control and follow thru are the keys. Now if I could see as well as 30-40 years ago.

Total barrel time-from sear break to the ball exiting the muzzle- is noticeably longer in a flinter all because of the ignition system. Larry Pletcher's work and videos demonstrate this beyond a doubt. I practice with a pellet rifle as total barrel time is similar.

Having seen experienced and decent percussion shooters miss the whole target with proven accurate and fast flintlock, I predict most folks moving to flints will have discouraging results at first then either keep chugging along, quit flinters or work to get better.
TC

[Dphariss]

Two fast flintlocks firing in slo-mo.

http://s72.photobucket.com/user/DPhariss/media/Video%201/SLOWMOTION.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1

Dan

[Larry Pletcher]

I did an experiment attempting to demonstrate the difference between flint and percussion ignition.  With help from Jim Chambers, I used a pistol stock, a 10" barrel, and a Siler flint and percussion lock.  The percussion times averaged in the .020 sec area, while flintlocks vary from a best of .0299 sec and up.  A well tuned Siler that I've used for a long time  runs .0377 or so.

As Dan mentioned above the difference in lock ignition doesn't tell the whole story. To the flint ignition time we must add the time for the barrel to ignite.  In other tests I've done this time depends on the priming powder used and the placement of powder in the pan.  The best barrel ignition I've measured is in the .036-.038 second area.  So, if we add the Siler time of .0377 to the best barrel ignition time we come up with .075 seconds, give or take a decimal.

So now we have a percussion at .020 and a flint at .075 seconds.  This sounds like a huge difference, but temper this with the fact that human senses are terrible tools to judge time.  Such small intervals of time are almost unnoticed.  A good shooter handling a gun he's used to, may feel it more than hear it. There is an intimacy between shooter and gun that enters in here.

The difference on paper then is large.  The difference between the locks in the real world of shooting seems much smaller.  It's there, but our poor human senses help to mask the difference.

My web site is a mess right now because of hacking.  I do have a slow motion of a Siler percussion among the many flintlocks that demonstrate some of these differences.

  Siler perc.

Small Siler flint

Regards,
Pletch

[Long Ears]

I remember back when I shot my first Flintlock. It was a large Siler so it was a good lock. I have extensive experience with high power rifle shooting as well as pistol and shotgun. My first shot with the flinter was off a bench with a rest. I was shocked at how long it took from the break of the trigger to the report. As Pletch says the human senses really are a bad measurement in time. Today it seems almost like instant ignition with that same lock. I can say shooting with that slight delay has made me way better at follow through hence a better target shot. Plus the satisfaction of having a Flintlock run all afternoon with 40 or more shots and never have a misfire nor shut down to wipe of clean a barrel. When you can do that you've got it figured out. Bob

[hanshi]

I carefully studied the experiments performed by Pletch.  Roughly, a percussion lock is around 4+ times as fast as a flint lock.  A well tuned flint lock will sound virtually "instantaneous"  even though it is far from that.  This is the reason "follow through" is so very important with a flintlock.  If I can detect ANY hesitation when firing a flintlock, I call it a hang fire even if it is barely noticeable.  Especially with 4F in the pan ignition "sounds" instantaneous to me.

[EC121]

    

I have a different explanation of the reason scores are similar. The average flint shooter's average scores are probably below his percussion scores. It's the shooters ability to shoot the top performing rifle. The top flint scores are shot by those who are great percussion shooters and have succeeded in bringing their flint scores to the same level.

That was my point in mentioning the scores.  A top shooter doesn't give up many points with the flinter.  Might as well have the fun of shooting flintlocks.  Even the occasional "klatch" feels good when the sights never move off the target due to follow through.  I've seen some folks just about drop the rifle from a flash in the pan.  They weren't aware of their recoil flinch until the misfire.  My attitude has always been that once I realized I wasn't going to be a top shooter, I might as well buy a fancy flintlock and look good losing.  OR you can always talk about how good you were before nature caught up with you.  As my buddy from Georgia used to say  "It's my story.  I'll tell it any way I want."

[Scota4570]

Interesting thread.  On the tests that peg the best cap guns at 0.02, how was the testing done?  Was a seloniod used to smack the trigger or sear?  Was the time from when the happer began to move or when the trigger got slapped. Time to bullet exit?  If so muzzle velocity would have some effect.   Was a cartridge rifle tested as a baseline?  

Amended.....I found the study.  He was testing from seloniod activation to flash (opticaly detected).  Well, that does nto answer the question.  The question, as I intrepret it, is how fast from sear disengagement to bullet exit.  That would need a different testing protocall. 

When I was young, I shot a TC flint lock to death.  Wore it out.  I recall it having a click-bang effect.  Follow through was critical.  It also taught me to shoot any gun well because I had to lean not to finch.  It was a lot like archery in that respect.

I recently made a side lock cap gun that uses musket caps.  The bottom of the nipple is resting on the main charge.  That rifle seems very fast.  I feel no difference when compared to a black powder cartridge rifle.  

Other cap guns I own have a click-bang effect.  Those have a drum.  The fire must go around corners.  

ML revolvers seem very fast too.  Since the nipple rests on the main charge I would expect that.  I guess my point is "fast" is not a cap vs. flint thing.  It seems to depend on what type of set up you have.  

[blaksmth]

 I figured some delay time , but never shooting one, of making one I wasn't sure, and I also knew that a drum and nipple was probably slower some what.

 I had heard from someone that a flint lock was timed pretty well if you prime the pan and fire it upside down and it goes off, or is this an old tale?

[gunmaker]

Flintlocks must be fast enough. The Brits wouldn't except a musket unless it fired upside down--try it.  More the shooter, do you have the focus to keep sites, target & position above all else with no distraction ?  Even if your standing in a blizzard, car crash or some cute girl loading next to you ??   If you want a really fast lock talk to Bob Roller-a member here, his work speaks for itself.  2 cents from an old and I mean old Marine....Tom  

[Standing Bear]

Re distractions:  I've done the pretty girl test and almost a blizzard but how did the DI set up the car wreck?

[George Sutton]

Caps are for kids


Centershot AKA  Mr. Flintlock

[Candle Snuffer]

Here is another way to look at this whole, cap -vs- flint ignition time.

IMHO it is not that important as you are dealing with two distinctively different ignition systems.  You must shoot a flintlock as a flintlock, that's what it is.  If it lags behind some milliseconds on ignition, then it lags behind.  It's a flintlock, it puts meat on the table, and it still test one's shooting skills.  Build those skills with a flintlock and enjoy your time with this fine historical piece of engineering.

[Ky-Flinter]

Years ago an old flintlock shooter told me "If God had meant for men to shoot caplocks, He would have scattered caps on the ground instead of flint."

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  Flintlocks are more fun.

-Ron

[Don Getz]

Back when I was shooting at the Alvin York over the log shoot, we would have two relays with over 100 shooters in each relay.
These realys are not timed, but the line would remain open until everyone would get a shot off at their target.  After everyone
had posted their target, I would finish cleaning the gun, re-load it, then go and lay down and fire my shot.  I would then return
to my loading bench, put a wet patch on my cleaning rod, run it down the bore and leave it there.   We would then stand around waiting for everyone to fire his shot.  Do you have any idea of what would hold up the line the most.........you would
hear somone popping caps, trying to get that cap gun to go off........Don