.54 or .58?

[Daryl]

Always thought I wanted a Hawken, till I seen an English Sporter.
Specs on the Chambers ES:

# Drop At Heel: 2 3/4"
# Butt Width: 2 1/8"
# Drop At Comb: 1 1/2"
# Butt Height: 4 15/16"
# Weight i 54 cal.: approx. 7 3/4 lbs.

Just look at the size of the butt plate 2.1/8x 4.15/16

and in a .58 too boot!

Bruce - you ain't just whistle'n Dixi - gun maker up here has one for sale that he made from a Chamber's kit. I was going to buy it but couldn't come up with the scratch.  I fired it a few times - nice rifle, Getz .58 and great piece of English Walnut.  90gr. 3F made a nice plinking load.

[Paddlefoot]

In a Hawken get a .54.  I built a .58 from a Sharon kit and find it real heavy to hump around the mountains and that sucker kills on both ends.  It won't kill a Griz any quicker than a .54 and if you ever meet Mr. Silvertips out in the wild there won't be much that doesn't use a lanyard to fire that will make you feel "comfortable".

[bs2]

I'd like to get opinions on what caliber to use for a rifle build.  I'm putting together parts for a halfstock Hawken that I will use for hunting here in Montana (whitetails, muleys, and elk).  I would also use the rifle for recreational shooting (probably more than hunting).  I've had a .54 before and thought it was the perfect caliber for my needs at the time, but wonder if I should consider something a little bigger considering that I might need it to bring down an elk.  I would like to hear the pros and cons of each regarding such things as recoil, cost to shoot, trajectory, accuracy, etc, etc.
Thanks in advance,
Kevin

A "Mountain Hunting" gun should be light.............it is carried, way more than shot.
My "Elk Rifle" is a .73 carbine......27"x 1.1/8x1" tapered barrel.......unloaded, it is 8#s on the nose.
With a 125FF it is fine to shoot off-hand, why...........2.5"s of drop at the heel and a wide butt plate.

My Point is build it light, but build it right...............

8 pounds is my Heavy limit for a "Mountain Rifle"

Use Chambers English Sporter as an good example of what you need.

...

My Time Line.....................................just for info

First rifle was a T/C Hawken Kit 50 cal.............1975 ish

Then I wanted a fullstock Hawken...............

Till I found a Jaeger .................less drop, wider butt plate

Then I saw an English Sporter...........like a Jaeger on a diet

Now the best of all..............a fullstock English Sporter

..................................................................................................

Only bad side to the ES in a fullstock is that nobody sells a kit in big bores........67-69 cal.........or has a barrel in stock.

Just from one Elk Hunter to an Other.............

My Four Cents,
Bruce
No-BS

[Daryl]

If you want to be comfortable in the bush where large and sometimes dangerous beasts roam, Forsythe's words of wisom right true -  anything from 16 bore or heavier is certainly comforting.  I know when walking the bush around here with that 14 bore, I was hunting moose; coming across a bear never came into mind - afterall, they're just another forest animal well within the capabilities of the rifle. To shoot a big bore, is to love it for it's accuracy and power.

[long carabine]

 I have owned a 45 and a 54 and just about everything in between. I settled on a 54 2 years ago because of the punch it has. My idea is the bigger the projectile the bigger the wound. This idea also follows the pistol that I carry...a 45 Sig P220. Bigger the bullet, bigger the wound. Shoot whats comfortable for you but a 50 cal will drop anything in North America and a 54 will do the same with just a little more whollop! Tim

[Dphariss]

I'd like to get opinions on what caliber to use for a rifle build.  I'm putting together parts for a halfstock Hawken that I will use for hunting here in Montana (whitetails, muleys, and elk).  I would also use the rifle for recreational shooting (probably more than hunting).  I've had a .54 before and thought it was the perfect caliber for my needs at the time, but wonder if I should consider something a little bigger considering that I might need it to bring down an elk.  I would like to hear the pros and cons of each regarding such things as recoil, cost to shoot, trajectory, accuracy, etc, etc.
Thanks in advance,
Kevin

A "Mountain Hunting" gun should be light.............it is carried, way more than shot.
My "Elk Rifle" is a .73 carbine......27"x 1.1/8x1" tapered barrel.......unloaded, it is 8#s on the nose.
With a 125FF it is fine to shoot off-hand, why...........2.5"s of drop at the heel and a wide butt plate.
<snip>

This is generally flawed thinking. A slightly heavier rifle holds better and loosing 3 pounds walking 4 miles a day  all summer will do far more for the hunter than shaving his rifle down till its impossible to shoot comfortably from the bench or well offhand.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I have owned a 45 and a 54 and just about everything in between. I settled on a 54 2 years ago because of the punch it has. My idea is the bigger the projectile the bigger the wound. This idea also follows the pistol that I carry...a 45 Sig P220. Bigger the bullet, bigger the wound. Shoot whats comfortable for you but a 50 cal will drop anything in North America and a 54 will do the same with just a little more whollop! Tim

You need to go look at a mount of an AK Brown Bear or a Polar Bear. A big one. Then ask if you would like to shoot one with a 50 or a 54. At one time I might have but I am wiser now.
Here is a front leg, part of it and shoulder from an AK  Bull Moose. With the meat on it it took 2 men to put it in the back of a S-10 Blazer.

 

Yes a 50 will kill him but the moose is not likely to try to kill the shooter before he dies. This one was shot by a guy with a 338.
I have shot a lot of animals with 54 RBs and its a great deer killer. But for bigger stuff it gets progressively "lighter" as the game grows in size. The 54 RB in pure lead can break heavy bones on an elk and go on to kill. I would not bet it would break one of these leg bones and go on the get the vitals. This critter is at least twice as big

Dan

[bs2]

Dpharriss,

Do you know me?

Have we met before?

Cause I am very Flawed!

Enjoy,

[Dphariss]

Dpharriss,

Do you know me?

Have we met before?

Cause I am very Flawed!

Enjoy,

If I was not flawed I would be in the shop doing something for myself or someone else but it is my birthday and Sunday to boot

Dan

[Daryl]

Here's a bear you might want to have a bigger gun for.  Looks like 16 to 10 bore fodder to me.  It squared 9'6" and sucked up a few modern rounds before dropping. There was a lot of hype went around on the set of pictures for this bear so I checked it out on snopes and came up with the real story. The picture of the front paw showed it to be about 4" wider than the man's head & almost as wide as his chest, yet this wasn't a huge bear - but about normal for a nice 'brown'.  It was a good one for sure. As you can see, the man on the right has his leg over the left front leg of the bear showing they weren't sitting 20' behind the bear. Nice one.



Here it is - missing one claw it seems.  He may not be a very bit guy, but it's as wide as his chest.

[Daryl]

Yeah- i'm flawed too, but I take little blue pill for that.

[bs2]

Dpharriss,

Do you know me?

Have we met before?

Cause I am very Flawed!

Enjoy,

If I was not flawed I would be in the shop doing something for myself or someone else but it is my birthday and Sunday to boot

Dan

Just had a Birthday drink to you

[bs2]

I'd like to get opinions on what caliber to use for a rifle build.  I'm putting together parts for a halfstock Hawken that I will use for hunting here in Montana (whitetails, muleys, and elk).  I would also use the rifle for recreational shooting (probably more than hunting).  I've had a .54 before and thought it was the perfect caliber for my needs at the time, but wonder if I should consider something a little bigger considering that I might need it to bring down an elk.  I would like to hear the pros and cons of each regarding such things as recoil, cost to shoot, trajectory, accuracy, etc, etc.
Thanks in advance,
Kevin

Kevin,

Guess it really depends upon what you want.............the 54 is a good cal, so is the 58.

Also depends upon how much you plan on shooting, cause 54s are cheaper.

Doesn't matter what we think, you have to like it...........................just remember when you put a black powder rifle in the dark, they tend to multiply.

[Dphariss]

Back when I was teaching people to fly a friend of one of the other CFIs I worked with went bear hunting somewhere in area, probably out to the west of Anchorage, with a hunting buddy..
This is from the guys friend who didn't get chewed...
Saw two bears from the boat and eventually the one guy shot one, twice as I recall, with a 340 Weatherby.
Bear runs off down the mountain through an alder patch.
They follow. Like a "pickup drove through the alders" etc.
They finally decide its getting dark and they should give it up till the AM.
Bear comes back to the party. Chews the shooter. Companion shoots gun dry single loads several times. Bear finally leaves to tear up more alders before expiring.
Carried chewed friend to river, leaves both guns and heads for the boat. Hears shot "Oh S**T bear came back". No gun so goes on to boat, swims around sow and cubs enroute.
Returns to friend, shot was a fox who came buy to see if he could get in a few bites.

Shooter survived with the obligatory stitches and part of his heal either shot or bit off.

Bad initial shot placement or poor choice of calibers or tough bear. Take your choice. As I recall the recovered bear was about 9-10'. But this is 30 years ago now
This was all over the news for a day or 2 at Anchorage and the above story is the one my fellow pilot got from the guy that was there.

I am not afraid of bears, I do respect them. I have also noted that the gun I am packing somehow shrinks when I find a big bear track, don't have to be all that big really .
For me anyway griz tracks always make me vigilant. I don't like working on equipment next the to brush knowing bears come by everyday. While Gbears are semi-rare here I have had two small BB in the back yard over the years. One was big enough to be a "problem" the other was just out of cubhood and was found up a pine tree by the house by the Jack Russell pack. Daughter was about 10 and I asked her to check the dogs to see what the barking was about. Her eyes were pretty big when she came back in. This one was darted. The bigger one made it out of town with no perforations.
These were the Delta Junct dump bears until the closed the dump.
Was changing the oil in a truck the next day and kept hearing noises in the trees right behind me. No bear, probably ravens. But it caused my startle reflex to get activated and this always sours my temper. They pulled 2 quarts of oil our of a fairly small hole in the case that night and bit a hole in the bottle and tooth marked another.
Dad says bears still come by now and then but not like it was, having the dump 1/4 mile away. They got into ANYTHING that was in plastic. Bit or tore the plastic just to check.

Dan

[Daryl]

About the same here - The must be respected for being somewhat bullet proof at times.  I don't fear or dread them - if I did, I wouldn't be in the bush about every chance I get.  I don' t pack the Ruger #1 .218 Bee anymore though & I don't hunt with a .45 cal longrifle, although that's all the deer here really need.

Sitting around a campfire in the afternoon, having a beer with fishing trip friends and big Dave says, "look at that" pointing off to the right.  Here was what looked to be an adult grizzly, maybe 400 to 500 pounds just walking quickly down the road by the camp, about 50' from our fire.  He looked over at us on the way by, didn't say anything and we didn't invite him over for a suds.  He must kept going at the same speed until out of sight, then bolted straight up the mountain, as we could hear him crashing over trees for a few minutes.

[Mike R]

I have to agree with roundball on recoil--I did not find my .58 to be a problem on that front--and I was shooting a classic pretty close custom copy of the original Hawken.  Of course I was not shooting 200 gr of fffg in it either!  I was shooting a patched round ball [.565 or .570] and ffg powder [various loads, but I settled on 100 gr].  I shoot 90 gr in my .54 longrifle. Recoil is not noticeable and goosing it up to what some of you shoot wouldn't be a big problem IMHO. My going to a .54 over a .58 is more economics of load and flatter trajectory with reasonable killing loads.  But there is nothing wrong with the .58 as a big game hunting round.  My .58 was a copy of an original in a museum in Taos.

[Daryl]

To increase power in a muzzleloading rifle, you increase ball diameter - simple as that. If most shooting is done on paper, it may be an option to build 2 barrel's for the same gun. Taylor has done that in the past, a couple times - latest was an English styled sporting rifle with .40 and .54 barrels, both tapered octagonal.  I think he used "B" weight swamped barrels and lopped off the appropriate amount from the ends to give a very nice taper.  I don't have pictures of that gun, or I'd post them.  If most hunting is done for large game - not deer, then a rifle with a .50 cal barrel for target plus a .58 for hunting would be better than wasting powder and lead shooting targets with the 'All round gun".  A system of hooked breech and barel keys makes changing barrels rather simple.  My own longrifle, for a  few years, had 2 barrels, a .40 and .45, yet changing 42" barrels only took a couple minutes.

[northmn]

If you think about making a 2 barreled gun which is not as hard as one might expect nor as expensive as owning 2 then a 58 in a Hawken would not be that bad for the hunting gun as we generally do not shoot one that much.  A 50 for the second barrel might make sense as a general shooter.  Usually in the heavy barreled guns like a Hawken weight goes up as one gets smaller in caliber.  While I do not have experience with big bear in my part of the world I still like the big bores.  According to charts a 58 can have a MV of about 100fps less than a 54 and still hit at the same speed at 100 yards.  A very large number of natives used NW guns that were manufactured for about 50-60 years that were 58 caliber.  Both in Canada and the US.  There is an interesting display in the Museum of Man and Nature in Winnepeg showing a Metis running buffalo with a NW gun.  They were not that heavily loaded but still worked for very large game.  The styles of the NW gun changed but not the caliber until later years.  I suspect it was the smallest practical caliber that would perform to their desires.

DP

[BrownBear]

You know, if we're talking swap barrels here including a 58, I'd be real tempted to go another way. 

I'm inspired by a friend who's putting the finishing touches on a really nice swap barrel---- in 72 caliber.  One is smooth and the other is rifled.  While I'm not real interested in a smoothie for shot in 54 cal and smaller, a 58 might just be my cup of tea.  A 62 gets more interesting and I'm really drooling over that 72, but that's dragging this thread too far from its original home.

[roundball]

Just sold a .54cal T/C Hawken Flintlock / RB barrel to a guy up in Anchorage...he already has a GM drop-in .62cal smoothbore barrel so he'll have a lot of flexibility with that set-up

[Leatherbelly]

  Yep,that's how I'd do it! A .54  for light days and a .62 for heavy days!

[Daryl]

LB - I thought you used a .40 for light days.

[Leatherbelly]

Ya,the .40 for them there cranky days! weeks...

[Daryl]

Get casting - when I started up, I used the kichen range.  Bit messy, bit it cleans up  ---- some.

[docwhite]

Looks like this thread is running out of gas. Allow me one last comment. Tain't the size of the ball that counts, within reason, it where you put it that does the trick. 54 or 58, get close, shoot well and the game will be yours. That said, hunting with the big bears in close proximity and you with a single shot rifle of any caliber requires only a tall tree to keep you out of trouble or a companion who runs slower than you do. Having killed a few, and seen more done in by others, some die easy and some die with rage and murder in their big hearts. The only critter worse is a cape buffalo. Omce their dander is up, a bushel of lead balls is not enuff to weigh them down, either one. DOC